Canoe Gun

[runastav]

Here are 2 photos, out of about 60 that I took, of a Haida Tradegun with a 16 1/2" long barrel.  This shortened gun resides in the Museum of Anthropology at the University of British Columbia campus in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.   I had called ahead and asked the curator if they could pull it out of the display for me.  We set a date and when I arrived the gun was waiting in the observation room for me to photograph and study.
David
Ohho, if I know. Was in Vancouver as a saylor in think it was 1976  but was not ashore hmmm the ship was invaded With beautiful girls
Runar

[David Rase]

Hold it muzzle down and look at the buttstock bottom edge, and it's pretty clear (at least to me) there is carved an eye, mouth (with teeth) and big ear.  Probably a mirror image carved on the opposite side, to make a complete face when looking at it edge-on.  Very intriguing.  Someone with way more artistic talent than me had a lot of time on their hands....

Here is the museums description of the carving.
Carved semi-cylindrical wood has a bird with ovoid in ovoid eyes, inverted split u ears, a split u beak, ovoid in wings at the sides with u form tips, three digit claws, and a three-feathered u form tail. The wood grip is carved with an creature on top of another. The top creature has oval in tapering oval eyes, inverted split u ears, curling nostrils, an open mouth showing teeth, a limb appendage at either side starting with a split u within a u form, an ovoid in ovoid, and a split u at the tip, and inward curving three digit paws. The bottom creature has oval inside oval eyes, a thin horizontal nose, and a thin wide grin. At either side below the bottom creature, there is a split u within a u form, an ovoid, and a double u form at the bottom. At either side along both creatures, there is an ovoid in ovoid with a pair of u forms next to it, an ovoid in ovoid with an s shape next to it, a three panel dorsal fin-like feature, a pair of split u's within larger u forms within a larger u form, and a three digit claw.

[Karl]

In the 1980s, divers recovered a short, French flintlock in Little Traverse Bay.  It had a 27 inch barrel and was loaded with duck shot.  Experts agreed that it had been made that way, not shortened.  Mr. Larry Young, the historical director of Ft. Michimilimackinac built a bench copy of that gun.  It's on display at the fort today.

[oldtravler61]

   Karl that's the one I'm referring too...The canoe gun is just a current term from about or started in the 1960s or so..IT'S just a term we use now...it's no big deal...!!!  Oldtravler

[jrb]

That's extremely interesting Karl. Do you have any more info on that French gun? , time frame, photos of found gun, photos of Mr. Young's reproduction, etc.?  Thanks.
John

[Karl]

I don't have any photos since the repro and the original belong to Ft. Michimilimackinac.  Mr. Young is now retired, but I can give you his phone number.  He doesn't do email.  He has a wealth of knowledge about this particular subject.  His number is listed in the Mackinaw City phone directory, (Michigan) which may be available online.

[Not English]

I think this thread is straying from the original question. Yes, there were "canoe" guns. They were almost certainly cut down in North America. Mike's beating a dead horse insisting that there no manufactured "canoe" guns.

[Hungry Horse]

There seems to be a fair amount of examples of cut down trade guns up and down the western coast of the United States, and Canada. How they got the name canoe guns is a mystery, but many are decorated with Northwest style carving not unlike the carving on Northwest Indian Ocean going canoes. There popularity in this culture seems to stem from the large multi level houses favored by several of these native peoples, which they spent long winters in. The Northwest carved shortened trade gun was a statis symbol, and a badge of office. And was specifically designed not for loading in a canoe, but for maneuvering and loading inside a house. Pistols were also very popular in this culture, but very scarce, hence the cut down trade gun.

   Hungry Horse

[Bob McBride]

What is know today as a canoe gun was called in the period a ‘short gun’. Some call them canoe guns based on an assumption about them. Though there are plenty of period references to ‘Indians, canoes, and short guns’ there’s narry a mention of a canoe gun. A distinction without a difference really, but there you go.

[rich pierce]

This is probably the 12th time we’ve discussed canoe guns. Always interesting. So unfortunate someone decided to name shortened guns “canoe guns”.  “Blanket guns” or “cut-off buffalo-running guns” would have been far more digestible.

[Pukka Bundook]

Indeed, Rich. Indeed.

[Mike Brooks]

This is probably the 12th time we’ve discussed canoe guns. Always interesting. So unfortunate someone decided to name shortened guns “canoe guns”.  “Blanket guns” or “cut-off buffalo-running guns” would have been far more digestible.

We ban talk of all sorts of things on this forum. Could we please ban the term "canoe gun"? If we don't I'm going to go play on the highway.....

[Mike Brooks]

The modern day use of the term 'canoe gun" comes from knuckleheads that think in order to load a gun it has to be absolutely vertical.  .

[rich pierce]

The modern day use of the term 'canoe gun" comes from knuckleheads that think in order to load a gun it has to be absolutely vertical.  .

Exactly. And THIS is why we see sheet brass buttplates on originals worn through at the heel. Because that is where long guns rested on the ground every time they were loaded, held at a roof-pitch angle. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

This is what's left of a trade gun discovered about 14 years ago in a couple feet of water in one of our local lakes.  The barrel length is 26 3/4" in 28 gauge.  It was manufactured at this length...never shortened, dented, blown up etc.  The evidence of the brass furniture that once was applied is still evident in the staining and lack of deterioration where it once was.  The person who found it did not spend any time looking for the hardware that had fallen away from the relic and was surely just resting in the gravel on the bottom of the lake...the rod pipe and the muzzle band, for example.

[Mike Brooks]

This is what's left of a trade gun discovered about 14 years ago in a couple feet of water in one of our local lakes.  The barrel length is 26 3/4" in 28 gauge.  It was manufactured at this length...never shortened, dented, blown up etc.  The evidence of the brass furniture that once was applied is still evident in the staining and lack of deterioration where it once was.  The person who found it did not spend any time looking for the hardware that had fallen away from the relic and was surely just resting in the gravel on the bottom of the lake...the rod pipe and the muzzle band, for example.

I have seen HBC listings for trade guns with two foot barrels.
 The one pictured obviously fell out of a Native American paddle powered boat.

[Oil Derek]

I have seen HBC listings for trade guns with two foot barrels.
 The one pictured obviously fell out of a Native American paddle powered boat.

Could it have been Minn Kota powered Mike/

[Daryl]

Might have been Minkota  -  too far north for Lacota.

[Mike Brooks]

 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The lock plate on this one dates it around 1865.  So it could have been being used right up to and into the 20th C, here in North Central BC.  Sure would like to be able to ask it some questions:  why is the butt stock smashed off and the lock in full cock?  The cock is holding a white flint (maybe one of Rich's river rocks.)

[Mike Brooks]

The lock plate on this one dates it around 1865.  So it could have been being used right up to and into the 20th C, here in North Central BC.  Sure would like to be able to ask it some questions:  why is the butt stock smashed off and the lock in full cock?  The cock is holding a white flint (maybe one of Rich's river rocks.)

Stock is busted off from smashing large pike or musky on the head.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I was thinking more likely it's owner tried to dispatch a beaver.  We don't have predetorial fish like that in our lakes around here...further north, yes.  Here, just trout, char, burbot, and a few smaller course fish.  Or perhaps the owner fell on the ice and smashed his gun - a more likely scenario.

[Mike Brooks]

I was thinking more likely it's owner tried to dispatch a beaver.  We don't have predetorial fish like that in our lakes around here...further north, yes.  Here, just trout, char, burbot, and a few smaller course fish.  Or perhaps the owner fell on the ice and smashed his gun - a more likely scenario.

Hmmm. Quite possibly an elusive ice fishing gun......

[Oil Derek]

Or blunt force trauma powered ice auger!

Okay, just playing off Mike ... I'm done here.

Cool gun though and I like it.

[Pete G.]

I have a rusty old Harpers Ferry Model 1842 U.S. Percussion Musket "barn find" here in Alabama that has been abused and crudely cut down in almost every way possible (barrel and stock).  The barrel needs cut down again because it looks like some former owner decided to bounce the muzzle on a hard surface to try to shake loose the charge that is still encrusted inside such that the muzzle edge is now dinged every which-way.  (It's in secure storage until I decide how best to remove the old charge when all metal parts are rusted solid.)   "If this old gun could talk...."

It would say ouch Ouch OUCH... stop that