Author Topic: Overloads  (Read 7915 times)

Offline EC121

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Re: Overloads
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2017, 05:18:03 PM »
If I remember my history correctly, after that incident and several more they finally figured out that the bigger iron cannon barrels weren't being cooled properly after casting.  The outside or bore(can't remember which) was cooling faster than the inside of the metal and causing crystallization or some other fault.  The metal shattered when shocked.  Later on they cooled the metal in a more controlled manner.
Brice Stultz

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Overloads
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2017, 09:31:56 PM »
Mr. kelly how long have you been shooting black powder and how long have you been fixated on guns blowing up  just wondering

One member PMed a photo he took at an re-enactment of a man with one hand. The fowler barrel blew off at the too deep (stress riser) wedding bands and took his hand.
I used to write for and work in the old Buckskin Report office years ago... There were a LOT of blown guns and really frightening reports of sloppily made/assembled ML arms coming in from overseas and made here. Like the ones marked Miruko with the 2 piece barrels. The 1/2 octagon barrels were made as and octagon and a round section then screwed together. That bores might not align was not thought important it seems. The the injuries, men, little kids etc etc. This was just what came to the editor... I have seen a Douglas 45 x 13/16" in a friends shop that split from the breech face to the rear sight dovetail with 60 grains of powder and a PRB this in 1968-69.  Then Pa Keelor who had 1 or 2 Douglas failures. He reported this in Muzzleblasts and was blacklisted by Douglas. 
Then we have claims that "we have never had a barrel fail". This is not what I hear. But then....
I started shooting MLs in the mid-1960s BTW. Over the years I have learned a few things NEVER make a drum and nipple gun. The ones available commercially are prone to breaking off if the support by the lock plate is not perfect. I had it happen once and there have been others.
Breeching. Of the last few breeched barrels probably 3-4 that people I know have received the breeching as so sloppy that they had to rebreech the barrels. Threaded 3/8" deep but the breech is only 5/8".
Even in a large bore barrel with the bore taped for the threads this creates "problems".
But the ML shooter has the mindset that since the barrels never fail in testing that the shooter/loader is at fault. This is simply head in the sand thinking. Yes its possible to test a very poor piece of steel with over loads and it will not fail. But the barrel made from the next 4 ft section of the same bar might very well. 
People liek to tell us that the typical leaded screw stock barrel is stronger than wrought iron. This is partly true but largely false. For example, while steel was available at the time ALL the US Rifle Musket barrels of the Civil War were skelp welded iron (best iron). Why? Because low grade steel and steel of unknown alloy is INFERIOR to iron at the pressures generated. These were proved with 200 gr on Musket powder and a Minie spaced 2" off the powder. If they failed a committee investigated and if it was found to be the fault of a workman he PAID FOR THE BARREL. 
The bottom line is this. If human injury or death could result extra care MUST BE TAKEN in the making of ANYTHING. But this does not apply to ML barrels it seems since everyone "knows" it was the fault of the shooter.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Daryl

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Re: Overloads
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2017, 09:41:24 PM »
Accurate Arms Reloading Magazine showed data for BP Ctg. guns- with pressures to 30,000PSI.
Thus, when shooting conicals from a muzzleloader, the pressures could quite possibly be similar, although there would be some 'loss' from the vent or nipple.
This brings to mind the Australian fellow Taylor 'gave' some powder to for his BC moose hunt.
 He used a R.E.A.L. bullet in a .50TC with 150gr. 3f GOEX- go figure - that was his hunting load.  YIKES!
Daryl

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galudwig

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Re: Overloads
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2017, 04:21:22 AM »
It won't be attrition that kills the sport of muzzle loading, it will be all this talk of bursting barrels...  :(

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Overloads
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2017, 06:55:59 PM »
It won't be attrition that kills the sport of muzzle loading, it will be all this talk of bursting barrels...  :(

REALLY? Its been reported for DECADES surely since before you were born. There was a serious spike in the 1970s, SERIOUS spike in reporting at least. But it did not seem to effect the sport much. Since at LEAST Pa Kellor reporting in Muzzleblasts in the the 1960s and the NUMEROUS reports in the old Buckskin Report the attempt has been to make the sport SAFER. To try to avoid mistakes and accident. To NOT have people maimed.
So telling people to be careful about breeching and assembly and materials for parts that contain 15000-20000 psi is not acceptable?
The steels used in the piping at petroleum refineries for example are several graded ABOVE what in specified for gun barrels. This from a man who used to shoot in matches who was a welder in a refinery.
So what about the various stainless steel modern firearms bursting, due to improper materials, with factory ammunition both in Europe and the US? Sako, Remington, some handguns with SS barrels? Sako RECALLED a bunch of bolt action rifles after a series of sometimes gruesome accidents. What of the Remington shotguns with 1140M barrels?  Does not make you wonder why the MILITARY which uses a 4150 alloy variant virtually never has burst barrels? collectively shooting high pressure ammunition by the TON? I have no idea how much ammo my company went through in VN. 50 cal, 7.62 and 5.56. LOTS of ammo. I am sure I fire more ammo in VN that I fired in MLs from the mid-1960s to date.  Rifles and MGs shot till VERY hot. A platoon member melted a flack vest to the forend of his m-60 one day. Yet we tolerate a failure rate with very low pressure, by comparison, firearms because we, collectively, are too cheap to demand barrels made of steel recommended for gun barrels.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Overloads
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2017, 08:27:56 PM »
Very interesting thread, lot of food for thought here. I have a question for Dan and JCKelly. What are your views on the tendency of many shooters to "hammer down" their patched balls with ridiculously tight combinations. I bet all of us have seen someone pounding down their ball with a mallet to seat it on the powder. personally, I tend to steer clear of shooters doing this, I have always thought that a dangerous practice.
I happen to prefer Rice barrels, I find their bores silky smooth and  I don't use any patch/ball combination that I cannot send down the bore with more than a firm shove until seated. If I find the bore to be getting fouled during a match, I stop and clean it until it is reasonably smooth. Wouldn't those tight ball/patch combinations, added on top of a rough and fouled bore be leading to excess pressure buildup as well that could lead to failure? I am not a metallurgist or engineer but it seems to me that a smooth barrel and reasonable ball/patch combo would  prevent the buildup of excess pressure that could lead to catastrophic failure with any reasonably decent quality barrel. I may be wrong on this, according to my wife I am about a lot of things but would like your input.
I also shoot long range paper patched bullets in my target rifles, most of them have very heavy wall thickness at the breech, I have always made it a point to wipe the bore clean between shots, I have never heard of anybody bursting a barrel with these even using heavy powder charges and pretty tight heavy bullets although never tight enough to required hammering  down the barrel with a mallet
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Offline hanshi

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Re: Overloads
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2017, 09:39:23 PM »
Hammering down a prb in a muzzleloader doesn't seem safe or effective if accuracy, especially, is desired; and this is true for any number of reasons.  I like tight combinations, but by "tight" I mean snug but safely seated with a wood, underbarrel rod.  If a prb has to be "pounded" down at the range, it's useless in the bush; a broken rod ends the day.  I want a prb that "cleans" the fouling and pushes it down with the ball each and every time; and a pounding tight load is not needed for this to work.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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galudwig

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Re: Overloads
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2017, 01:29:07 AM »

REALLY? Its been reported for DECADES surely since before you were born. There was a serious spike in the 1970s, SERIOUS spike in reporting at least. But it did not seem to effect the sport much. Since at LEAST Pa Kellor reporting in Muzzleblasts in the the 1960s and the NUMEROUS reports in the old Buckskin Report the attempt has been to make the sport SAFER. To try to avoid mistakes and accident. To NOT have people maimed.
So telling people to be careful about breeching and assembly and materials for parts that contain 15000-20000 psi is not acceptable?
The steels used in the piping at petroleum refineries for example are several graded ABOVE what in specified for gun barrels. This from a man who used to shoot in matches who was a welder in a refinery.
So what about the various stainless steel modern firearms bursting, due to improper materials, with factory ammunition both in Europe and the US? Sako, Remington, some handguns with SS barrels? Sako RECALLED a bunch of bolt action rifles after a series of sometimes gruesome accidents. What of the Remington shotguns with 1140M barrels?  Does not make you wonder why the MILITARY which uses a 4150 alloy variant virtually never has burst barrels? collectively shooting high pressure ammunition by the TON? I have no idea how much ammo my company went through in VN. 50 cal, 7.62 and 5.56. LOTS of ammo. I am sure I fire more ammo in VN that I fired in MLs from the mid-1960s to date.  Rifles and MGs shot till VERY hot. A platoon member melted a flack vest to the forend of his m-60 one day. Yet we tolerate a failure rate with very low pressure, by comparison, firearms because we, collectively, are too cheap to demand barrels made of steel recommended for gun barrels.

Regarding my comment, I was speaking figuratively; basically a sarcastic musing.  If everyone believed they were suddenly in danger of being maimed or killed by bursting barrels, they would lay aside their contemporarily-made muzzleloaders forever.  Aspiring artists and those attracted to the sport would turn to something safer.  We'd have to quit buying guns made by the best makers unless they had a "WARNING" statement roll marked on the barrel. 
 
I think telling people about breeching, assembly, and materials for parts is perfectly acceptable; I never said it wasn't.  What I don't understand is why you guys claiming the high ground won't acknowledge that the rest of us both understand, and are willing to accept the risks, and leave it at that.  Instead, you keep pressing the case by citing metallurgical data and decades old cases of failures without showing us why we "cheapskates" should suddenly be concerned about our barrels coming apart.  Has there been a sudden upswing in the number of 12L14 failures?  If so, I'd definitely like to hear about them and see the data.  Someone mentioned that I could find out that information by searching the internet.  Frankly, I'm not interested in doing the research (guess that makes me lazy too).  If 12L14 barrel failures are a growing problem, it will come to light on the myriads of existing BP message boards (bad news travels fast).  So far, crickets.  If and when I start seeing dozens of burst barrels reported to the ALR site, I'll reevaluate my position.

I also take offense to being called "cheap" for not demanding barrels made of materials that others anoint as being suitable for said use.  I spend a lot of my free income taking classes on gun & knife building and blacksmithing.  I spend lots of money going to various shows so that I can to talk to other builders and see their work.  I spend lots of money buying the best quality components that I can afford from various suppliers to build and make stuff.  I spend lots of money on high quality and specialty tools.  I spend lots of money buying black powder and lead to use on the range and in the woods.  I spend lots of money on books, magazines, and memberships in BP related organizations.   Nothing I do in this sport is cheap.  To be called cheap is an insult.  Do I wish suppliers would incorporate your data and concerns into their product offerings? Yes, I do.  However, I think it would take government oversight and regulation to make that happen and I'd never advocate that.
 
If I had to sum up my feelings about this issue, I'd say this.  "I hear you metallurgists and I thank you for presenting your case.  I understand and appreciate where you are coming from.  I've weighed the facts and have decided to stick with my routine.  Please accept my informed choice and stop insulting me for making it."

n stephenson

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Re: Overloads
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2017, 05:02:05 PM »
I`m with GALUDWIG on this . It`s nice to have this info. Which seems kind of like " don`t use this but, for liability reasons I`m not gonna tell you what to use"  . If the people that are "in the know" would get together and start a barrel company it wouldn't be long before "Accidents" would be a thing of the past and, all these other "cheapskate"  barrel companies would be gone. I wish I had the money that car companies have spent making cars safer . Yes , they are safer and they cost more than a house used to but, guess what people still get killed everyday. Nobody in their right mind wants to be unsafe but unless you plan on "making" safer barrels it`s just a bunch of talk . Like the old saying goes "put your money where your mouth is "  nobody is going to complain about a new barrel maker on the block. This would be the best test bed you could find , either people will pay extra to be safe or you`ll go broke but either way we can quit talking about it and see first hand.                   nathan

Offline hanshi

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Re: Overloads
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2017, 10:17:13 PM »
I'm not actually part of this discussion but still would like to say that behind (generally speaking) every barrel failure is either an idiot, distracted shooter or an ignorant, careless owner who needs to go back to collecting stamps or playing golf.  All just MHO.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Overloads
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2017, 11:19:46 PM »
The last three decades of my career were spent as the tech guy for a distributor of specialty high temperature alloys, Rolled Alloys. Designing, fabricating and using equipment intended to work while glowing a cheerful red is  a very specialized and not-well-understood field. They do not teach it in college. Best design practice for stuff working at red heat is sometimes quite the opposite from making a bridge or an automobile. Part of Rolled Alloys' business model was to be knowledgeable regarding the how our product behaved in heat treat furnaces and other thermal processing applications. We had to deal with the same problems over and over and over, as almost no one else understood the matter. Our President impressed on us that while we had dealt with seen this problem many times, it was new, the first time, for any given customer. That required patience. 

Eventually I ran out of that patience, at least once, and alienated, rather than helped, a customer or two.

In the process of dealing with modern muzzle loading gun failures I have learned the details, and seen hospital photos of, a number of failures where what was supposed to be a fun activity crippled some working man. I consider loss of a hand, an eye, or a scoop of brain a serious matter and I become a bit emotional about what has happened to these people. Others here, Dan Phariss in particular, have seen far more serious injuries than have I.

One does not forget these things.

True, I am not up-to-date on current barrel failures.. What I found courtesy a lawyer was in a type of muzzle-loader not covered by this site, and involved some variation of 416 (also free-machining)  stainless.

But just how politely can I put this? As a responsible engineer I would never select or suggest a 1200 series steel to contain exploding gunpowder.

I used to be very enthused about studying, shooting and to a mild degree building, Kentucky rifles. Used to own 5/6 of a Michigan curly maple tree, cut up by Armstrong Millworks, of Highland Michigan in 1973. Made a nice .45 flint copy of a Shriver & carried it to local shoots. When I learned what my barrel was made of I was quite displeased. Quite. I laid it aside & have not fired it since. Right now it is in the basement, barrel and breechplug about six feet apart. Having then nothing to use at the next Canoe Shoot I brought a British Paget flint carbine. Shooting Napoleonic war surplus wasn't so wise, but my did that thing carry a heavy ball!

As far as cost goes, there is not a whole lot of choice anyway in American made barrels.

Jim McLemore has made barrels of 4150 Rifle Barrel Quality steel (used for machine guns), I believe some for chunk gun shooters. He bought Bill Large's old machinery to work this 4150. 
I am told that Ed Rayl uses 8620, a low carbon nickel-chromium-molybdenum steel, in his barrels. Never met the man, know absolutely nothing about his barrels. Well, I saw some of his pistol barrels at Log Cabin, and Caywood Guns has used his barrels for their Southern Mountain Rifle.
No doubt it takes more time to bore, machine the flats on, and rifle a barrel of any low-sulfur, low-phosphorus steel than it does one of 1200 series steel.

The Italians and the Spanish seem to manage this, I do not know how.

 I will continue to provide what technical information I believe helpful to the long range interests of this sport.

Perhaps one might be forgiven for occasionally forgetting basic diplomacy?

    from 1856.