Today's safe barrels?

[Skychief]

Thank you Mr. Kelly.

[bob in the woods]

Question for those who know....Does fire blueing have any adverse affect on a 12L14 or 8620 barrel ?

[PA Pilgrimage]

Everyone questions material composition.  But finish, metal treatment, and inspection are factors too.

Anyone ever mag particle test their barrels?   Old timers used to tap the metal with a hammer and hear a good ring, instead of a thus which would be a defect.

Look up hoop stress, assume the barrel is round at the thinnest spot.

Look up stress risers.

Everyone questions their barrel.  Does anyone question their powder granulation or formulation?

With a flintlock with a 1/16th flashhole.  I do not worry about it. Even with a 13/16ths 45 cal......

[Carney Pace]

Seat the ball against the powder.
Do not use smokeless powder in your Muzzle loader.
Do not shoot the early Japanese muzzle loaders with the 2 piece barrels

The barrels of today whether 12L14 or ordnance steel are so far superior to yesteryear's  barrels there is no comparison.

Carney

[JCKelly]

"Shooter error"

Can anyone here honestly say -- I repeat, HONESTLY - that he has never made an error loading a muzzle loader?
Well, true, if you never loaded one then you didn't make an error.

There are a lot of strong statements here made about steel by many without a great deal of knowledge in that area. I know what sulfur does to steel, and especially I know what phosphorus does to steel.

I's sure not a really great metallurgist but since the 1960's a large part of my work has been looking at broken things and trying to figure out why they broke.

It is rarely the metal.

But then, most industrial operations do not make stuff out of steel that has all the toughness of a real good ceramic. Only the muzzle loading guys do this.

Whoever said barrels will continue to be 12L14, I do believe him. At least so far as American muzzle loaders are concerned.

European guns (NOT ASIAN) seem to be made by companies with some knowledge of firearms manufacture.

Me, I give up on you guys but am happy with my nice clean steel Traditions barrel, as well as my somewhat battered Navy Arms Zouave, made I believe in Gardone, Val Trompia Italy.

Pedersoli is just fine but I don't need another gun (yeah, I know "need" has nothing to do with it).

[nosrettap1958]

What is the percentage of sulfur and phosphorus in 12L14 steel as compared to the same percentages in a barrel built by Pedersoli?

[Dphariss]

When I explained to the original owner of Shiloh that using 1144 Stressproof for heavy barrels was a bad idea, there was a spirited discussion and the next batch of steel was 4140. The bitching from the guy turning the barrels to their pre-octagonal profile could be hear bitching through out the plant. its a LOT harder to work. Take a chunk of "free machining" steel stick it in a lathe and turn v threads on it. Use a nich big piece about 1.5 dia. Now pull it out of the lathe and put in a little propane forge and heat it to high red and then just let it cool in the forge. Cut threads in the other end. You will get the idea. I doubt that most of the people making ML barrels can cut rifle a blank make of 4140-4150. If they do it may require lapping (virtually a sure thing). Since the average ML buyer is too cheap to pay 400-450 bucks for a barrel they make them of stuff that is cheap, easy to get and cuts like butter.
This is the back story. The usual barrel steel at Shiloh at the time was 1137 GB quality. Which in the barrel wall thicknesses was OK I guess, no known failures other than UNDERLOADS of smokeless. But getting a couple thousand pounds of GB quality steel was at best difficult, the mills sell it at about 100 tons to the lot or at least a furnace melt. So Wolf bought Stressproof.
As I have stated before in the course of the manufacturing a rebate was turned on the heavy blanks  to fit the gun drill.
When button rifled a SIGNIFICANT number split from the rebate to the muzzle, gotta love those brittle steels. I looked through the bars in the rack and find the paint code for Stressproff (one of the steels the patent holder specifically should not be used for gun barrels). WFT?
Anyway....
Now lets think about stress risers. Dovetail cuts for sights and such. The RIFLING in the barrel is a stress riser. Love them deep wedding bands. HUGE stress riser. In the steels generally used for ML barrels I bet they all show a bore dimension change at that point.
How much pressure will a steel stand? A lot. Many, many 45ACP 1911 barrels were made of 1018. Far "weaker" than 12L14 by the "book". But the unexplainable FAILURES here are with a STAINLESS steel that is the stainless second cousin to 12L14 and is not recommended for gun barrels.
For example Roy Jenks (S&W) via a friend who conversed with him on the subject, that a S&W 357 cylinder with cartridges OVERLOADED with Bullseye, with cylinder face CLAMPED to a steel plate, all 6 chambers fired at once WILL ONLY BULGE. It does not break.
THIS is the difference in barrel steels.
120 miles east of me is the largest refinery complex north of Oklahoma. I used to shoot matches and one of the competitors was a welder in the refineries. Just for kicks I asked him what grade steel did they use for pipes and such. NUCLEAR GRADE. The process doe doing the welds and the later examination of the welds is both complex and through. They don't want any accidents.....
This is the fact. Even very poorly made iron will stand most loadings with BP. Look at the barrels detailed in "Colonial Frontier Guns". So when ANY modern steel fails with ANY load fired from a FL we have to ask #$!?  Remembering that I used to have a Garand barrel my Dad shot with a dirt plug back behind the front sight and it only BULGED. But the ML people thinks OK if the barrel blows and sticks steel fragments in the range overhead with a what everyone thinks is a improper load. Cause barrels never fail, right?
Now lets look at the making of iron for damascus barrels in England the purification they went through to clean the iron. If you poke around the WWW you can find the book "The Gun" by W. Greener (W.W.'s father) it tells all sorts of interesting stuff. Like how they used to like HORSESHOE nail scraps since they could form these into a ball from the furnace and the small pieces let the impurities burn off easily making the iron cleaner.  But of course the English put barrels through an energetic proof compared to some places on the continent and they did not want HRH losing a hand if the barrel failed... Very bad for the gun makers reputation.
Dan

[nosrettap1958]

You have to factor in the mindset of black powder shooters back then. More than a few were under the mistaken impression that no matter how big the load black powder cannot hurt modern steel.

[Joe S]

We live in very litigious society.  If someone blew up a barrel with anything approaching normal black powder loads, I would expect a lawsuit to have been filed.  I have looked on the net, and I can't find a single one.  Furthermore, none of our barrel makers could withstand a lawsuit.  They wouldn't have to lose in court to be put out of business, because they couldn't even afford to go to court.

I appreciate the metallurgist's knowledge and experience, but what I would like to know is, where are all the blown up 12L14 barrels?

[Bob Roller]

We live in very litigious society.  If someone blew up a barrel with anything approaching normal black powder loads, I would expect a lawsuit to have been filed.  I have looked on the net, and I can't find a single one.  Furthermore, none of our barrel makers could withstand a lawsuit.  They wouldn't have to lose in court to be put out of business, because they couldn't even afford to go to court.

I appreciate the metallurgist's knowledge and experience, but what I would like to know is, where are all the blown up 12L14 barrels?

Jose,
I think that G.R.Douglas carried product liability insurance on their barrel business and it did
include the black powder types. Good thing they did. Jim McLemore makes all of his barrels
from 4150 certified for gun barrels and doesn't worry about a blown up black powder barrel
including the long range types like the Rigby and Henry styles that heave a 500+grain bullet
backed with 85 or more grains of high quality black powder.

Bob Roller

[nosrettap1958]

We live in very litigious society.  If someone blew up a barrel with anything approaching normal black powder loads, I would expect a lawsuit to have been filed.  I have looked on the net, and I can't find a single one.  Furthermore, none of our barrel makers could withstand a lawsuit.  They wouldn't have to lose in court to be put out of business, because they couldn't even afford to go to court.

I appreciate the metallurgist's knowledge and experience, but what I would like to know is, where are all the blown up 12L14 barrels?

Exactly, where are all these blown barrels. Probably all are filed under either operator error, operator ignorance or operator stupidity.

[Joe S]

Bob Roller:  Thanks.  Do you have contact info for Jim McLemore? .....Never mind.  I found it.  He seems to be out of business.

Crawdad:

Probably all are filed under operator error, operator ignorance or operator stupidity.

And where exactly is that file?  Why don’t we see references to this rash of barrel failures in the black powder literature, or posted on the net?

[nosrettap1958]

That file is imaginary Jose, I was trying to be sarcastic. 

[Joe S]

Understood.  Nuance is often lost in this medium.

[nosrettap1958]

I agree there. You're right, where are all these barrels and their subsequent lawsuits that have supposedly blown.

[JCKelly]

Here are some:
1.   Rifle Design:    Hawken halfstock percussion, built from   American made kit.

   Barrel Dimensions:   .50 caliber, 1” octagon, 32” long

   Steel:   12L14

   Load:   100 grains black, one round ball

   Location, Date:   Cherokee, Iowa, September 1979

   Injuries:   Minor cut on right index finger.

   Background:   Engaged in rapid fire contest to cut a board in half.
      Rifle burst at 7th or 8th shot.

   Nature of Failure:   Barrel split open 4” back from muzzle into four 
      long pieces, all hung together. Brittle fracture with
      multiple fracture origins on barrel flats. The ball
      indented the bore 360° around at the fracture   
      origin, 9” back from muzzle.

   Reference:   March 1980, The Buckskin Report.

2.   Rifle Design: Custom Built left hand percussion rifle with drum. About $750 in 1977.

   Barrel Dimensions:   .50 caliber, 1” octagon.

   Steel:   12L14, cold drawn octagon, in the as-cold drawn condition.

   Load:   80 grains GOEX FFFg black powder, one 370 grain
              Maxi-ball lubricated with Crisco, Remington caps.

   Location, Date:   May 17, 1979, East Carondelet, Illinois.

   Injuries:   Lost entire thumb, index and middle fingers of   
      right hand, along with much of the palm.

Here are the remains of the rifle.

    gun

It would be inappropriate here to show an X-ray of the remnants of the shooter’s hand.

Background:   The man had 12 years experience shooting and hunting with muzzle-loading rifles, the first 10 years using original flint and percussion guns. He marked his ramrod to ensure seating the bullet on the powder. This rifle had been fired about 200 times in two years.
he loads used ranged mostly from 40 to 80 grains FFFg, occasionally 120 grains, with round ball. 
Rifle was fired about 8 times with 60-80 grains FFFg and a Maxi-ball. The rifle maker had proofed  this barrel with 250 grains of black powder and two patched balls.

Nature of Failure: Brittle fracture originating on the bottom flat 10 inches from the breech end. The barrel shattered into several pieces, four of which were found. The breech plug remained in the stock. Metallurgical examination showed cracks in the steel, in the
un-damaged part of the barrel.

3.   Rifle Design:    American made, bronze frame.

   Barrel Dimensions:   .50 caliber, 1” octagon 32” long, breech threads 3/4” dia.

   Steel:   12L14 cold drawn to octagonal cross-section.

   Load:   50 grains FFg black, spit lubricated patched round ball.

   Location, Date:   Arkansas, 1979.

Injuries:   Lost entire left thumb, remaining fingers stiff.
           (the man had been a draftsman)

Background: New shooter, just bought the rifle. Had difficulty getting the ball down
the barrel. Rifle burst on third shot.

Nature of Failure:   Brittle fracture originating 12-3/8” forward of the breech. Multiple fracture origins on barrel flats. The ball indented the bore 360° around at the point of failure.

Reference:   January 1980, The Buckskin Report.

4.   Rifle Design:    American made, mass produced half stock percussion with patent breech. Barrel Dimensions:.45 caliber, 13/16” octagon barrel with 11/16” Diameter breech threads.

Steel:   Cold drawn 1117

Load:   60 grains FFg black powder, patched round ball. Cleaned between shots.

Location, Date:   Missouri, March 1979

Injuries:   Lost left eye, suffered brain damage, impaired Hearing and balance.
           Could no longer perform his job designing Hallmark Cards
Background:   Shooter had marked the ramrod to be certain that the ball was seated on the powder, with his 60 grain load. The rifle had been fired a couple hundred times.

Nature of Failure: The entire patent breech and threaded portion of the barrel separated, striking the shooter in the head. The barrel broke in the breech at the foremost thread. The notch at the root of the thread concentrated stresses to about 2-1/2 times normal level, in the thin barrel wall.

Reference:   Private communication from John Baird, Editor, The Buckskin Report


5.   Rifle Design:    Custom built.

   Barrel Dimensions:   .54 caliber, 1” octagon 32” long.
   
   Steel:   (barrel maker normally used cold drawn 1144)
   
   Load:   70 grains, FFg black.
   
   Location, Date:   About 1979—80
   
   Injuries:   None
   
Background:   Rifle almost new. Witness claims the rifle was properly loaded, that is, the ball was not short started.

Nature of Failure:   Barrel bulged 12” from the muzzle.
   
6.   Rifle Design:    American made half-stock percussion Hawken style.

   Barrel Dimensions:   .54 caliber, 1” octagon 32” long.
   
   Steel:   cold drawn 1144 
   
   Load:   120 grains FFg GOEX black powder, .490” round ball patched with
                        .016—.018”  thick mattress  ticking.
   
   Location, Date: New Mexico, about Thanksgiving 1979. Weather about 50°F.
   
   Injuries:   None
   
   Background:   Shooter cleaned after every shot. Engaged in slow shooting match, barrel cool. Ball was seated on the powder when fired.

Nature of Failure: Bore ringed about 3” forward of the patent breech.
                  The outside flats bulged 0.005”.

7.   Rifle Design:   Italian Hawken, but custom fit with American made barrel.
    
   Barrel Dimensions:   .54 caliber, 15/16” (?) octagon.
   
   Steel:   (barrel maker normally used 12L14 cold drawn to octagon shape)
   
   Load:   120 grains FFFg.
   
   Location, Date:   New Mexico
   
   Injuries:   None
   
   Background:   Shooter had used this load for two years in the rifle.

   Nature of Failure:   Barrel split from breech to muzzle. Top half of the
                              barrel blew some 15 feet up in the air.

8.   Rifle Design:   American made, mass produced half stock percussion, patent breech.
    
   Barrel Dimensions:   --
   
   Steel:   Unknown
   
   Load:   70 grains FFg black.
   
   Location, Date:   About 1979—80
   
   Injuries:   None
   
   Background:   Rifle almost new. Witness claims rifle was properly loaded.

   Nature of Failure:   Barrel bulged where ball was seated on the powder.


9.   Rifle Design: American made, mass produced Hawken style, percussion patent breech.
    
   Barrel Dimensions:   .50 caliber
   
   Steel:   Not determined.
   
   Load:   70 grains FFg black powder with maxiball.

   Location, Date:   Iowa, November 1981.
   
   Injuries:   Severe leg injuries.
   
   Background:   Shooter age 15. Fired one shot with no problem.  Had great difficulty l
                                loading the second   maxiball, and unsure if it were seated on the
                                powder.

   Nature of Failure:   Four inches of the breech end of the barrel, including the patent
                                        breech, were completely blown away.

10.   Rifle Design:   Custom made fullstock flintlock Kentucky.
    
   Barrel Dimensions:   .45 caliber. 7/8” octagon 44” long.

   Steel:   12L14 cold drawn octagon

   Load:   135 grains FFg du Pont black powder, .012” oiled
              linen patch. Ball stuck about 18” from the muzzle.
 
   Location, Date:   1975

   Injuries:   None
   
   Background:   Shooter had about 27 years experience. Inadvertently used powder
                                measure set for 135 grains, more than normal charge. Ball became
                      stuck when loading in fouled barrel. Shooter attempted to shoot it out.

   Nature of Failure:   Bore ringed

11.   Rifle Design:   Custom made
   
   Barrel Dimensions:   .45 caliber, 13’16” octagon

   Steel   (barrel maker normally used 12L14 cold drawn to octagon shape)
   
   Load:   50 grains FFg, one patched .437” round ball
   
   Location, Date:   About 1971
   
   Injuries:   None

   Background:   Barrel failed on first shot.

   Nature of Failure:   Attributed to a flaw in the steel

   Reference:   December 1972, Muzzle Blasts
                      February 1987, The Buckskin Report

12.   Rifle Design:  American mass produced Hawken style, percussion with patent breech.
   
   Barrel Dimensions:   .50 caliber octagon
   
   Steel:   (possibly 1137Mod Gun Barrel Quality)   
   
   Load:   FFFg black powder*   

   Location, Date:   Georgia, 1981   

   Injuries:   Left thumb blown away, balance of hand mutilated

   Background:   --

   Nature of Failure:   Barrel burst approximately 4 inches forward of the   breechplug
                                        face. The front half of the lockplate was blown away. The patent
                                        breech burst in the thin area under the snail, and clean-out screw
                                        blew out. Failure did not begin at any design defect.

*Defendant’s experts insisted that there was some smokeless powder in some of the gun powder examples. Plaintiff s expert, who saw the samples first, found no trace of smokeless. With no agreement among experts, the cause of failure remains speculative.

Speculation by James Kelly: That the plaintiff’’s expert found no trace of smokless only means just that, that he could not find it. My own experience with the Defendant is that they know their business. Also, this failure description fits what I have seen in guns burst using smokeless. In this case I would agree with the Defendant. This is only my personal opinion.

13.   Rifle Design: American made, mass produced Hawken style, percussion patent breech.

   Barrel Dimensions:   .54 caliber, 1”  octagon 28” long.

   Steel: Maker said to have been using Gun Barrel Quality 1137Mod at this time.
        Chemical analysis not performed. Hardness Rockwell B 100 – 102
   
   Load:    110 – 115 grains FFg or FFFg GOEX with patched round ball. The ramrod
                     was marked to show when the ball was seated on the powder. Rifle had been
           fired about 40 – 50 times. When the gun burst it had been loaded with black
                      powder.

      BUT

      The shooter had previously fired a few rounds using Unique smokeless powder,
                 with his measure set for about 50 grains by volume black.
      
      But . . .
 (photo not in tinypic)

Location, Date:   Indiana, March, 1986
   
Injuries:   Left arm  amputated below the elbow, lost the sight of his right eye.
   
Background:  From the fouling and what appeared to be a few grains of FFg black stuck in
                       the breech I believe this rifle was indeed loaded with black powder on
             the occasion when it burst.

Nature of Failure:   Barrel, lockplate and stock destroyed. I believe those few shots with Unique so weakened the metal (started cracks), and that is why it finally burst with a black powder load.

13.   continued

Bear that in mind. This gem is from an internet auction listing,  Aug 2009:

“This is a 50 caliber Hawken cap lock muzzle loader. I bought this rifle in 1973, did a few practice shots in my basement and then took it to a hunting preserve in Tennessee and nailed a big white ram and a Russian boar. I still have them on my wall. I mixed some smokeless powder with the black powder and it sounded like my 30-06 when I fired it. . .  This is a very good looking rifle and I haven't used it much but I really enjoyed owning and hunting with it.”

Someone may be in for a surprise, but I chose not to purchase this rifle.
 
14.   Rifle Design: American made, mass produced Hawken style, percussion patent breech.

   Barrel Dimensions:   .50 caliber 15/16” octagon, 32” long.

   Steel: Cold drawn 1117 leaded, stress relieved (but not fully annealed), hardness
                  Rockwell B88
   
   Load:   60—70 grains, predominantly FFFFg, but FFFg also used, with .45 cal
                        MaxiBall®.
   
   Location, Date:   Near Clarksville, Ohio, December 25, 1981
   
   Injuries:   Left hand amputated at the wrist.
   
   Background:   This young plumber fired the rifle between 300 and 500 times since its
                                purchase in 1974. The MaxiBall was said to have been seated on the
                       powder. The owner generally used FFFFg powder,
                       stating “If they had four I usually bought it, if not I get the three”

   Nature of Failure: Barrel burst into at least four pieces. The brass forend cap was
                                    opened up flat, the steel under-rib broken and torn from barrel, and
                                    the forestock completely splintered near the front end. The
                          dovetail for the underlug was cut deep, leaving only about 0.084”
                                    thickness of metal over the bore.

15. & 16. Were Ballard rifles with Stressproof barrels, not appropriate here. If you want
                them, email me off-line.   

   
17.   Rifle Design:   

     Barrel Dimensions:   13/16” octagon, .45 caliber
   
   Steel:    Barrel maker commonly used cold drawn 12L14   
   
   Load:  50 grains FFg black powder and one patched .437” 
         round ball. The ball was seated on the powder.   
               
   Location, Date:   Midwest, 1972 or earlier

   Injuries:   None
         
   Background:   First shot out of this rifle.
      
   Nature of Failure: Top flat cracked open. Failure attributed to “. . .a
                           flaw in the metal.”

   Reference: Muzzle Blasts September 1972, Proof Testing New Barrels,
   Roy Keeler

    ( do not have this picture in format to include here.

Msssrs. Crawdad & Gordo - I do hope you all appreciate this list.
I don't particularly care to remember these incidents.
I shoot "hands", sort of, with the shooter of #2. He got, I think, a substantial settlement. That particular barrel maker ceased advertising muzzle loading barrels at this time.
When I got the shattered barrel from #3 the pieces had some fibrous reddish brown organic matter smeared on them.

You do not hear about such failures these days because
There is no more John Baird.   Nor is anyone going through lawsuits to compile a list
No one wants to hear about them.

This, In My most incredibly Humble Opinion.

[bob in the woods]

One thing I noticed was the term "cold drawn octagon'  or just "cold drawn".    All of the barrels I've used are machined oct [ swamped]  or machined oct/round .  Unless I'm mistaken, the barrel makers [ cottage industries] start with round stock.
Would this not negate the stresses induced by the cold drawn method of production?    I'm not a fan of any material being worked cold , either drawing to shape, or button rifling, without the end product being stress relieved . The barrel I just purchased was machined to shape both externally and internally.

[JCKelly]

12L14 is brittle.
More precisely, it is liable to behave in a brittle manner when three circumstances are present, and chances are it will behave in a brittle manner if only two out of the three are present.
1. Build up the stress, or load at a high rate of speed.
  I believe an explosion qualifies.
2. Presence of a notch of some sort.

[Bob Roller]

Bob Roller:  Thanks.  Do you have contact info for Jim McLemore? .....Never mind.  I found it.  He seems to be out of business.

Crawdad:

Probably all are filed under operator error, operator ignorance or operator stupidity.

And where exactly is that file?  Why don’t we see references to this rash of barrel failures in the black powder literature, or posted on the net?

Jim McLemore has been working on some Rigby style barrels so I don't think he's out of
business. I got a call from him recently and his Phone # is 1-219-552-4050. Give it a
try and see what happens.

Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

12L14 is brittle.
More precisely, it is liable to behave in a brittle manner when three circumstances are present, and chances are it will behave in a brittle manner if only two out of the three are present.
1. Build up the stress, or load at a high rate of speed.
  I believe an explosion qualifies.
2. Presence of a notch of some sort.

Looks like everything I have built is just about to blow....

[JCKelly]

Hit some wrong d*** button accidentally.

Again

12L14 may act brittle - "may" means not always. When it does so, the shooter may have serious problems.
 
12L14 is liable to behave in a brittle manner (i.e., snap or shatter) when three circumstances are present, and chances are it will behave in a brittle manner if only two out of the three are present.
1. Build up the stress, or load at a high rate of speed.
    An explosion qualifies.
2. Presence of a notch of some sort. You name it - deep dovetails, breech or drum threads,
    seams in the steel, rifling, &c.
(Yes, any steel bar may have a seam. Ya gotta test for them. That is one thing that makes Rifle Barrel Quality steel.)
    12L14 can develop long cracks when the hot rolled bar is cold drawn at the mill, down to the fairly precise round stock one buys.
I learned this in the 1970's when I asked Bethlehem Steel labs if they had any toughness data for 12L14.
Because I did not want to blind side the guy, I told him I wanted it because some people made gun barrels out of it.
All I heard on the phone was laughter - his first reply.
Then he gave me the data & said the reason Bethlehem had run the tests was that hot rolled 12L14 tended to crack when cold drawn to round stock.

ALL machining bar is cold drawn to get it round enough to fit in the screw machine's collet.

Your barrel may have been planed octagon, but the bar came into the shop as cold drawn round stock.
One manufacturer used to have that round stock further cold drawn to make a nice neat octagon shape. That Mfg went out of the muzzle loading barrel business for reasons discussed above.

3. The third thing that can lead to brittle failure is low temperature. Steel does not live at 98.6F, your steel barrel's idea of "cold" is not your idea.
For common hot rolled steel, say ASTM A 36, I think that "cold" is somewhere around 32F
For 12L14 "cold" is about 70F.
La Salle Steel used to publish this data, I have one of their books.

How many ways can one say this?

Yes, I do believe you all will continue to use 12L14 barrels.

I will not, thank you.

[nosrettap1958]

Well it took a lot of posts but we finally got JCKelly to give us the entire story.

Thank you Sir, much appreciated.

[Percy]

After reading all the posts concerning 12L14 barrel material I'm very concerned so I've got to ask a few questions.

1) Is a flintlock with a 12L14 barrel safer to shoot than a caplock with a 12L14 barrel?

2) Is there any published loading data considered to be a "safe" load in a gun with a 12L14 barrel?

3) If 12L14 material is unsafe for gun barrels why is it still being used? (I can not/don't want to believe that a barrel producer or a gun maker would knowingly use unsafe material no matter what the price.)

4) If you have a gun with a barrel made from 12L14 material, will you continue to shoot it?

5) If your answer to number 4 is no, what do you plan to do with it? In  other words, are we going to see a big increase in guns for sale at discounted prices?

Percy

[Mike Brooks]

After reading all the posts concerning 12L14 barrel material I'm very concerned so I've got to ask a few questions.

1) Is a flintlock with a 12L14 barrel safer to shoot than a caplock with a 12L14 barrel?

2) Is there any published loading data considered to be a "safe" load in a gun with a 12L14 barrel?

3) If 12L14 material is unsafe for gun barrels why is it still being used? (I can not/don't want to believe that a barrel producer or a gun maker would knowingly use unsafe material no matter what the price.)

4) If you have a gun with a barrel made from 12L14 material, will you continue to shoot it?

5) If your answer to number 4 is no, what do you plan to do with it? In  other words, are we going to see a big increase in guns for sale at discounted prices?

Percy

In my opinion....which means nothing......
1) In my opinion, yes.
2) Not that I'm aware of.
3) beats me......
4) yes.
5)No.

[Joe S]

Mr. Kelly

First of all, let me say that I understand the difference between failure via plastic deformation and brittle fracture.  Nor would I disagree with your conclusion that there are better gun barrel steels than 12L14.   

I also know that there were a number of barrel failures mostly in the 1970’s.  But that was nearly 40 years ago, and things seemed to have changed.

However, this statement I do disagree with this statement:

You do not hear about such failures these days because
There is no more John Baird.   Nor is anyone going through lawsuits to compile a list
No one wants to hear about them.

Everyone here is very interested in barrel failures, and if normal use failures ever occurred, people would talk about it.  Consider recent history, say since 2000.  That’s 17 years.  I don’t know of any normal use barrel failures since 2000.  Do you?

Since 2000, our ALR membership experience encompasses tens of thousands of barrels, and I’d suppose perhaps millions of individual shots fired, with apparently no failures.  If normal use failures occur, and I suppose they could, they must be exceedingly rare. 

So is 12L14 the best gun barrel steel available?  Certainly not.  Is it safe for our uses?  I would say we have a lot of empirical evidence that 12L14 is adequately safe for black powder.