Advice on an English Half Stock

[davec2]

This will take a little explaining......40 years ago I came across a nearly 2 inch thick plank of true Brazilian rosewood.  Magnificent wood....very hard and very hard on tools.  I made quite a few items out of it but saved the largest piece for a planned half stock rifle.  At some point (long before I knew any better) I band sawed out the shape of the stock.  For the next 30 years, the stock blank sat in a closet.  When I got off active duty and started building again, I made plans to install an under rib and make all of the furniture in sterling silver.  About 10 years ago now, I bought a 34 inch, .50 caliber swamped Rice barrel and had it inlet into the blank.  And then it sat again as I started to learn how much I didn't know before I found this board and all of the excellent craftsmen and historians that generously provided their time and expertise to one another.

So now, knowing how much I don't know and realizing that there are mistakes that can't be undone, I am trying to decide how (and if) I want to proceed on this.  And let me qualify my next comments by saying I know less than nothing about English half stocked flint rifles.....So I thought I would ask for some help.  If I do continue with this build, I would need to decide what lock to use.  A while ago I had Bob Roller rework one of the available Twigg locks.  But the lock, while I think it is an appropriate style, looks to be a little on the large size for this rifle.  (The barrel breech is 1 inch and the Twigg lock is almost 5 3/4 inches long). 

I also have an L&R Bailes lock, which looks a little small (4 3/4 inches long) and a Chambers Late Ketland  (5 inches long).  My questions to the community are then:

Is one of these locks better suited, size and style, for a rifle like this ?

Is there another option out there I have not considered for an appropriate lock ?

Should I just skip the whole thing and get on with my life ?

Here are a few pictures of the wood and the parts as they stand now.  The forearm would be cut shorter than it is now.  I don't really like the shape of the butt that I cut out all those years ago, but there is not much to be done about that now.  The closer picture shows the three locks I mentioned above.







Thanks in advance for any suggestions, help, advice.....or recommendations on where to get professional mental help.

[TMerkley]

Don't worry about the mistakes, it's the only way to get better!
Mine are horrendous for a first build.  Anyways, a Queen Anne lock might be appropriate.  I saw an original Queen Anne lock in a display at a Children's Museum that was found on a ship wreck.  It was on a pistol, but proportionate for the rifle you're building.  Jim Chambers sells those.  Excellent lock

[smylee grouch]

Dave, do you dislike the butt shape because of its drop and comb line or something else? Davis makes an English style (late flint period ) flint lock you might consider.

[Daryl]

The lock in the middle might be appropriate. I think the Bailes is a bit small.

The middle rifle proportions should is close.

[T*O*F]

Dave,
Consider what trigger plate and guard you are going to use and ensure you will have enough room under the lock to install it.  I assume you will be using the trigger guard shown.  It screws into the trigger plate.  The tang bolt would normally screw into the trigger post from above.  However, one the gun I am building now, I had to solder a block onto the plate for that purpose,  The trigger itself will be ground down so that it intersects with the sear bar at approximatley a 45 degree angle.  If you are going to use a setup similar to this, it behooves you to have it on hand when planning your layout.  Then you can choose any lock which will allow sufficient wood underneath to fit the plate.  If you are planning on just using a simple pinned trigger, then it really doesn't matter much.

[davec2]

Smylee......the amount of drop is what bothers me the most.  It is about 3 1/4 inches.  Not unheard of, but more than I would use if I was planning the stock from a plank.  I can change the shape somewhat, but not the amount of drop.  I will look at the Davis late English lock.

Daryl.....Thanks for the picture.  Yes, the rifle in the middle is what I am headed towards but with a wooden patch box...I think....

TOF.....I am thinking about using a similar trigger guard and trigger but I may have to make all the parts from scratch.  You have a good point about making sure there is enough room under the lock to get a reasonable trigger mechanism in place.

[smart dog]

Hi Dave,
What is your objective?  Half stock rifles were much more common during the late flint period although there are a few English rifles from earlier periods that are half stocked. A round-faced English lock is only appropriate for the rare half stocked rifle from the 1720s-1760s.  Even the military Ferguson and pattern 1776 rifles had flat locks.  Flintlocks became smaller during the late 1700s and early 1800s and the flat molding around the locks got larger.  Also note in the photos below of late 18th and early 19th century rifles by John Manton, that the comb was less pronounced much like the "new land pattern" musket versus earlier Brown Bess muskets. 



I think you have plenty of wood on your stock blank to create any half stocked English rifle you choose but a "low comb" rifle like the photos might be the easiest fit to your blank. If you go that route (late flint rifle), I think the Davis Twigg lock is too large and the L&R Durs Egg might be better or one of the late English flintlocks.  Chambers late Ketland could work with some reshaping. The key is the lock should function like a fine watch and all of the commercial locks will need to be worked over.  You have all the machinist and woodworker skills to do this right. The inletting is perfect with no more wood removed than necessary. The checkering is flat topped, which means you will need to make your own cutters, which is not hard.  I would also urge you to use blued, color-case hardened, or polished steel for the hardware rather than silver, limiting silver to a wrist escutcheon. Then go nuts with your great English style engraving.     

dave

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The above is an English Sporting Rifle that interests me.  Granted, it is a percussion rifle, but a lot of the design elements are relevant to your build.  The first of those pertains to that butt stock shape.  You have cut your blank with more drop at the heel than would have been ideal, but you can make up for that in part by reducing the comb at the wrist transition, using the photos of other posters for reference.  This is going to make your comb line lower than you may be used to, but it will invite you to place your sights very low on the barrel.  The guard that Dave has demonstrated is like the one in the image above, though I believe it is for the later percussion era.  Still it has a lot of merit.
Chamber's late Ketland lock is about perfect for your rifle.  Some filing to create the pigeon chested cock would improve it I think.
Can't wait to see you wade into this build!

[Cody Tetachuk]

As far as the drop goes, you might be surprised how well it points with 3 1/4". If not, you can hot oil bend it somewhat after it's finished. Done with shotguns all the time (morso for cast than drop but....). For info on english guns, I found this to be an invaluable site to study http://www.drake.net/newantique

[jerrywh]

 Dave. for what it's worth I think the drop is very good. It will fit very well. You may wish it has some cast off also. I think you are correct about the lock sizes. Why don't you check and see what Blackley in England has. I might have something you will love. I will look and see.  Your  a good enough gun maker to make anything. Finishing that rose wood will drive you up a tree.  Finishes don't stick to well on Rose wood. That late ketland doesn't look English and can't be made to look English in my opinion.

[FDR]

Seal the Rosewood first with sanding sealer (shellac, 2 coats), rub it back lightly and then apply your oil finish over the shellac.

Fred

[jerrywh]

Dave. Blackley has an Durrs egg lock that is 5.18 long and is a safety lock. It would be perfect for your gun.  You could Call or Email them to check on delivery time. https://www.blackleyandson.com/acatalog/Lock_Sets_English_Flat_Faced.html

[jerrywh]

Davec2 
    PM sent.

[Bill Raby]

   What I have heard is that you want the height of the lock plate behind the pan to be about equal to the width of the barrel at the breech.

[JBJ]

Davec2,
I suggest that you read the material at the web site noted below re Brazilian rosewood and the potential for irritation and toxicity of the wood dust etc. from this species. Many of the tropical woods have a potential to cause problems - some of them quite pronounced. Really just a heads up as you might be sensitive and would need to take some reasonable precautions as you proceed. Should be a lovely rifle when done.
J.B.

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-allergies-and-toxicity/

[Mauser06]

FDR brings up a good point t to mention...You've already made items with the wood and may know that...I didn't know that when I started working with certain exotic woods with turkey calls. Tried my normal finishes and the dang things would never dry. Always gummy.  Learned that was why. Something about the oil content of the wood I believe. 


JBJ brings up the other point...Same thing..You may already know. I ran the stuff over belt Sanders and created lots of dust...

Then again, maple sets off my allergies probably just as bad. 



I'd build me a fantasy half stock from that beautiful stock. Keep it in a style you envision and it aughta turn out beautiful.

[jerrywh]

 For less drop, bend it.

[Daryl]

Dave. for what it's worth I think the drop is very good. It will fit very well. You may wish it has some cast off also. I think you are correct about the lock sizes. Why don't you check and see what Blackley in England has. I might have something you will love. I will look and see.  Your  a good enough gun maker to make anything. Finishing that rose wood will drive you up a tree.  Finishes don't stick to well on Rose wood. That late ketland doesn't look English and can't be made to look English in my opinion.

I turned a piece of Madagascar Rosewood for the real seat on the Spey Rod I built back in the late 80's.  To this day, it does not need any finish and it's been out fishing & submerged in rivers in all weather - from rain to snow and sleet & direct hot sunshine.  There is so much oil in it, it's already finished. A bit of wax and done.

[Joe S.]

concur with Daryl,made a set of knife grips outa rosewood way back and a coat of your favorite wax is more than enough. That wood is a bugger to work with though.Shame it's not available anymore atleast the South American variety.Lotta color in some of it,purples,reds,blonds,nice stuff

[Bob Roller]

The above is an English Sporting Rifle that interests me.  Granted, it is a percussion rifle, but a lot of the design elements are relevant to your build.  The first of those pertains to that butt stock shape.  You have cut your blank with more drop at the heel than would have been ideal, but you can make up for that in part by reducing the comb at the wrist transition, using the photos of other posters for reference.  This is going to make your comb line lower than you may be used to, but it will invite you to place your sights very low on the barrel.  The guard that Dave has demonstrated is like the one in the image above, though I believe it is for the later percussion era.  Still it has a lot of merit.
Chamber's late Ketland lock is about perfect for your rifle.  Some filing to create the pigeon chested cock would improve it I think.
Can't wait to see you wade into this build!

Chambers late Ketland for sure.Polish the internal parts,especially the tumbler on both sides and the
ramp where the mainspring works as well as the mainspring itself.

Bob Roller

[davec2]

Wow....great information....

Smart Dog....thanks for the photo....I will look up the Mantons.  I also like the idea of using steel hardware and limit sterling silver to the thumb piece, the side plate, and, perhaps a nose piece.  Not sure about the RR pipes.

Taylor.....I love the look of the rifle you sent.  Not sure about what trigger guard I want to use, but the general shape looks great.  I'm thinking that the Chambers late Ketland will do it with some mods.  However, I like the look of a "waterproof " pan like the one on the little Bailes lock.  I can make the pan on the Ketland look like the Bailes.  What do you think ?

Here is a picture of the Bailes and the Ketland.  There seems to be plenty of iron that could be removed to make the pan shape like the Bailes.  Also, do you have a photo of the modification to the cock you mentioned earlier (the "pigeon chest" contour)?





I thought I could also do some molding work on the lock like this one:



Cody & Jerry ......I think I am becoming at one with the amount of drop.  Even in the rough plank form, it does seem to point nicely.   And the thought both of you had about bending the stock is the way I will go if I end up not liking the amount of drop.

Jerry.....I got the PM on the Blackley lock.  Let me think about that a bit. lock

FDR.....Thanks for the tip on the shellac seal first.

Bill.....I think the Ketland lock falls into that size ratio.

JBJ & Mauser.....Thanks for the link and comments about sensitivity to various woods.  Many years ago, after working with walnut for years and years, I suddenly became very allergic to the sanding dust and couldn't work with it for a long time.  Then, just as suddenly, I was no longer allergic to it.    At any rate, I have worked with this rosewood before and, so far, it doesn't bother me....but who knows?

Daryl and Joe S......good to know about the rosewood.  I have made a lot of odds and ends from it, but all "indoor" kinds of items.  Nice to know it will hold up well when exposed to the elements.

Bob Roller.....Thanks for the tip.  I was going to send you a PM to ask exactly what should be done to improve one of these locks.

I'm not hard over on making a rifle that is completely historically accurate.  After all, I am building this for myself and would like to include features I find pleasing.  But at the same time, I don't want to be so far afield in the design that it offends the historical senses...

Thanks to all of you for the continuing help 

[hen]

The cock on the Cooper lock tells you all you need to know about the correct shape for an English cock of that period. Cut one from solid, as I do, then there is no compromise on dimensions or shape.

[Bob Roller]

Dave. Blackley has an Durrs egg lock that is 5.18 long and is a safety lock. It would be perfect for your gun.  You could Call or Email them to check on delivery time. https://www.blackleyandson.com/acatalog/Lock_Sets_English_Flat_Faced.html

I'd stay with the Chambers Ketland. If it's NOT English then what is it?? Also if a part breaks Jim or Barby
are a phone call away.Unless there has been BIG improvements in the imported castings that will make
them equal to the Chambers OR L&R external parts then I'd avoid them entirely. The few imported cast parts
I have seen or used (Very few)in years passed looked like they were made in a play dough mould.

Bob Roller

[davec2]

Just had another thought (always dangerous..... )......should I be planning a hooked breech ?

[smart dog]

Hi Dave,
If it were my project, yes.

dave