Author Topic: Advice on an English Half Stock  (Read 10049 times)

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2017, 07:26:59 PM »
Quote
)......should I be planning a hooked breech ?
Depends if you want to have barrel keys in the forestock.   ;)
All the guns pictured have them.
Probably have to make your own as cast flint hooks seem to be a rare commodity from suppliers.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2017, 11:33:31 PM »
Thanks in advance for any suggestions, help, advice.....or recommendations on where to get professional mental help.

Professional mental help??? Your project is exactly where mine is now. Barrel in the wood and that's it.
No mental help needed because to quote an old Waylon Jennings song, "I've always been crazy but it
keeps me from going insane"

Bob Roller
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 03:32:50 PM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline smart dog

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2017, 01:31:20 AM »
Hi Dave,
What TOF mentioned may be a good option. I typically buy any hook and tang that has sufficient excess metal to shape the way I want.  Then, if my barrel already comes with a good fitting breech plug, I simply cut the tang off that plug and file a hook in the remaining bolster. I find that I create hooks that more precisely fit the standing breech (tang) that way and it does not take very long at all. What Dave (TOF) also said about barrel keys is bang on.  It really makes no sense to use keys if you don't use a hooked breech because the idea for the keys and breech are to be able to remove the barrel easily for cleaning.

dave
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 01:43:42 AM by smart dog »
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2017, 01:38:36 AM »
Another lock that you might find a little more English, is RE Davis' Late Ketland.  It has a "V" shaped waterproof pan, and is of the size you seek.

A hooked breech is definitely 'required'.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2017, 05:45:25 AM »
This is the flint hooked breech I was talking about.  I didn't realize that TOTW carried them.  The tang can easily be reshaped or even cut off and a new piece welded on to make your own design.  I even prefer these when using a drum and nipple arrangement, instead of screwing the drum directly into the barrel.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/663/1/PLUG-FH-18-3
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline davec2

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2017, 08:28:24 AM »
OK....hooked breech, barrel keys.  Iron butt plate and trigger guard.  Silver accents.  Bend the stock if I need to once the butt and wrist are shaped.  Still contemplating the lock.  Might try to modify the Chambers Late Ketland and see how it turns out.  May take Hen's advice and make a new cock from scratch.  Any suggestions on appropriate butt plate shape and some trigger guard options ?

Thanks
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2017, 10:25:28 AM »


The middle rifle proportions should be close, including the butt plate shape and angle.
The bottom rifle isn't bad for butt shape and angle as well.





« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 10:26:46 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2017, 03:00:15 PM »


The middle rifle proportions should be close, including the butt plate shape and angle.
The bottom rifle isn't bad for butt shape and angle as well.






I'm no expert but to my old eyes,the middle rifle is the ideal shape and size.
The one I am making is not sophisticated and has no hooked breech but I
don't anticipate any problems cleaning it.The lock I am using will be an L&R
Durs Egg with my own mechanism. Nothing fancy but a good performer and
I will use a double throated cock.

Bob Roller

Bob Roller

Offline Cody Tetachuk

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2017, 06:45:07 PM »
OK....hooked breech, barrel keys.  Iron butt plate and trigger guard.  Silver accents.  Bend the stock if I need to once the butt and wrist are shaped.  Still contemplating the lock.  Might try to modify the Chambers Late Ketland and see how it turns out.  May take Hen's advice and make a new cock from scratch.  Any suggestions on appropriate butt plate shape and some trigger guard options ?

Thanks

Ig you are going to modify a lock and if you want "waterproof", why not make it unique like this http://www.sitemason.com/page/jEHjq0 . Regarding butt plate and trigger guard, they are extremely easy to make and, from what I've seen, plates and guards from a shotgun are common and quite appropriate on rifles. Large bow on the guard and stepped tang on the plate as seen in the pics provided by others. breech plug and standing breech also quite easy to make
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 06:46:35 PM by Cody Tetachuk »

Offline davec2

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2017, 07:17:41 PM »
Cody,

That is quite the lock !  Never seen one like that before.  I need to study that further.

I am thinking about a butt plate like this one:

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/671/1/BP-ENG-2-I

I know the other pictures show the trigger guard with the large loop on the back end, and that does appeal to me.  However, would a guard like this be out of place?

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/923/1/TG-FOWL-LA-I

Oh.....and what about a sliding wood patch box ?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 07:18:14 PM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2017, 12:55:20 AM »
Dave,
Some points for your consideration.  Incorporate or not, as you choose.

With a one inch barrel, you are going to have a very slim rifle, probably with a wrist that is 3/4" to 7/8".  I showed earlier the tang screw being threaded into the trigger plate.  On guns by best makers, there is usually a screw going thru the trigger plate into the standing breech and the trigger plates have an area built into the plate to inconspicuously house that screw.



With these slim rifles, the net effect is to sandwich the area behind the tang, as cracks often develop in the thin web between the lock panels.  Over time they often develop as a result of the forward weight of the barrel pulling down on that area if not securely clamped.  Likewise, if not clamped, a crack will develop on the left panel where the lock screw is exerting pressure for the same reason.



Another feature found on higher grade guns are the screws they use.  They have an 82 degree shoulder and an extended head.  Instead of a conventional screw, which you file the head to the part, these screws are countersunk into the part, both the shoulder and part of the head.  Once fitted and tightened, you can recut the screw slot to clock it in the proper position.  Once they are in, they are effectively stopped and can't be turned any further.  With your capabilities, I feel this is something you could probably do.



Likewise, the lock screws are usually inset into whatever sideplate is used.



Even when using conventional woodscrews on long rifles, I usually chuck them in the vise and file a small flat on the side and run the countersink deep enough to accommodate it.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline davec2

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2017, 08:51:48 AM »
Been way too busy with work to do much gunsmithing.  However, although I have not firmly decided on which lock to use, I did some modifications to the Chambers Late Ketland.  First, the "hook" at the top of the cock turns backward.  Just personal preference, but I like the look of the "hook" turning forward.  Harder to do, but it looks more graceful to me.  Here is how the cock came on the lock:



I TIG welded a blob of steel on the top of the cock.  Here is how it looked before filing.....the look I was going for is shown at the right on another cock I made many years ago:



After a little grinding and filing, it came out like this:



I like the look of a more "waterproof" pan, so I decided to modify that as well.  Here is the pan the way the lock comes....



After some filing and polishing, it looks like this.....



I don't have all the parts done yet, but this photo shows the plate with the modified pan and the cock with the altered curl at the top......





« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 12:04:01 PM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2017, 04:02:51 PM »
Dave. Blackley has an Durrs egg lock that is 5.18 long and is a safety lock. It would be perfect for your gun.  You could Call or Email them to check on delivery time. https://www.blackleyandson.com/acatalog/Lock_Sets_English_Flat_Faced.html

Davec2,
Stay with the Chambers late Ketland and use Daryl's advice and the gun in the middle of his posting.

Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2017, 04:10:52 PM »
OK....hooked breech, barrel keys.  Iron butt plate and trigger guard.  Silver accents.  Bend the stock if I need to once the butt and wrist are shaped.  Still contemplating the lock.  Might try to modify the Chambers Late Ketland and see how it turns out.  May take Hen's advice and make a new cock from scratch.  Any suggestions on appropriate butt plate shape and some trigger guard options ?

Thanks

On the one I have in "progress" I made a non hooked breech plug but I have the machinery
to do it with. The lock I am going to use will be the L&R Durs Egg with a double throated cock
and a shotgun butt plate and the trigger guard as shown with the bigger bow for room.
The lock will have my own mechanism.

Bob Roller

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2017, 04:11:10 PM »
Dave,  The class I am teaching next week at the NMLRA seminar is building a Staudenmayer !/2 stock English Sporting Rifle ca 1800. I have an extra photo CD of the original that I could send you for reference. We are using Chambers Late Ketland Lock. I have some extra sheet metal under ribs that might be helpful. I would be happy to share any photos or observations from my class as it progresses.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2017, 06:00:09 PM »
What a team!!
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline davec2

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Re: Advice on an English Half Stock
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2017, 07:32:48 PM »
Bob,

Thank you for the advice.   Ron, I will certainly take you up on the offer of the photo CD and any information from the class you would be willing to share.  I will send you a PM with my mailing address.  TOF....I missed thanking you for the suggestions and photos back in March but I will use the ideas you sent along.  Thanks again.

Taylor.....No Kidding !!!!  Thanks to all for the help and suggestions.
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780