What exactly do I have?

[New Jersey Devil]

Which trigger are you pushing forward?  The back trigger should fire it if pushed forward.  Pushing the front trigger forward lowers the trigger bar, and it shouldn't do anything.

I probably didnt describe this well at all.     

The half-cock wont function/hold, but it does hold properly on full-cock.  The rear trigger cannot be pulled back even a millimeter to set the front trigger to a lesser pull, and regardless of force of pull, the front trigger does not activate/fire the weapon, so it seems as though neither trigger is working.    However, if you push the rear trigger forward, then the rifle does fire.   I was busy today and didnt have the chance to play with the adjustment screw like Darkhorse suggested, to see if that will do anything.

[Bob Roller]

Is it possible that is a Bob Roller lock on the second one? I have a Roller lock here with the same cock on it.

Mike,
I also think it's a Ketland that was apparently unique to my shop.
It was a bit of a trick to make it and not many are here in the USA.
If it IS mine,I hope the owner of the gun sees this and contacts me.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

You don't really need to disassemble the lock to check it out.  Remove it and give the internals a scrub with some oil and an old toothbrush or something.    Then do a visual inspection to see if everything moves.  The lock only has about 5 moving parts.  Which trigger are you pushing forward?  The back trigger should fire it if pushed forward.  Pushing the front trigger forward lowers the trigger bar, and it shouldn't do anything.

This is 100% correct information so follow it. IF it is my lock it will have ROLLER in a semi circle and a date.
I offered this Ketland variant as a lock for the so called "Flint Hawken" and the first 5 made went to Switzerland
for a female shooting/ski team. Others went to Germany and one was featured in a copy of VISIER,a German
shooting publication along with a Jim Chambers lock.

Bob Roller

[Longknife]

That patching need to be thicker...........

[New Jersey Devil]

You don't really need to disassemble the lock to check it out. Remove it and give the internals a scrub with some oil and an old toothbrush or something.    Then do a visual inspection to see if everything moves.  The lock only has about 5 moving parts. 

What kind of oil would you recommend?  I removed the lock and was going to use Hoppes #9 tonight, but then I figured this thing has been sitting dirty as hades for years now, another day or two aint gonna hurt anything.  And after removing it, I DO mean it was dirty.  The pics in the next post are after a considerable amount of toothbrush scrubbing, and it's still dirty as all heck.   Rest assured if the present owner gets this thing cleaned and can find someone to make it operable again, it shall not get dirty like this again.

[New Jersey Devil]

I also think it's a Ketland that was apparently unique to my shop.
It was a bit of a trick to make it and not many are here in the USA.
If it IS mine,I hope the owner of the gun sees this and contacts me.

Bob Roller

Hello sir,

That would be quite an amazing thing if it did turn out to be yours, oh the power of the internet!  I'm guessing it isnt though, because I dont see "Roller" on it.   Though to be honest, unless you deeply engraved your name, it's still so black I imagine the name could be hidden there, but I'm guessing you can probably tell simply from the pics I'm showing of the internals maybe?   If it's not yours, can you tell me what it is?   I'm hoping that after I clean it properly with oil the fly will move so it holds half-cock or if not, apparently I was told I will need to have the fly replaced.  This was BLACK inside like you just wouldn't believe before I scrubbed (and scrubbed) with a toothbrush tonight!







upload full resolution photos

[EC121]

I doubt it is Roller's work.  Personally I would take it apart and polish it, but that isn't necessary to get it working.  Any gun oil or spray lube(WD-40, etc.) will help wash the crud out of it.  Then take a toothpick and grease the bearing surfaces with whatever grease you have.  The sear appears to be hanging below the plate.  Make sure everything moves.  As long as the hammer is all the way down, you can remove the two back screws and their respective parts without hurting anything.  That will help with the cleaning.  Don't tighten the sear screw too tight or you will bind the sear and maybe the tumbler.    The frizzen and spring can also be removed without trouble.  You will need a mainspring vise to remove the mainspring.  Don't leave the spring in the vise after removal or it might snap.

[New Jersey Devil]

Any gun oil or spray lube(WD-40, etc.) will help wash the crud out of it.  Then take a toothpick and grease the bearing surfaces with whatever grease you have.  The sear appears to be hanging below the plate.  Make sure everything moves.  As long as the hammer is all the way down, you can remove the two back screws and their respective parts without hurting anything.  That will help with the cleaning.  Don't tighten the sear screw too tight or you will bind the sear and maybe the tumbler.   

Took your advice and attacked it with a toothbrush and the 3-in-1 oil I use on the small internal parts of my Garands, and it seemed to work pretty well.  Was too chicken to remove the back screws though, and didn't have grease handy.  My main goal was just to eradicate all the places where rust was starting to form and stop that process.

I took some pics of what I think may be the problem, at full-cock the tooth catches a groove and it holds I think properly like so:



But when attempting half-cock, for some reason the teeth seem to just touch each other and move past each other rather than catching a groove.  Because it doesn't actually half-cock, I had to hold it there as close as it gets to take the picture, which is why you see my thumb. 

[Bob Roller]

OK,now I'll clear up the mystery.It is the Ketland externals with the Chet Shoults
tumbler,bridle and sear.These parts I think are still available from Jerry Devaudreuil
in Wooster Ohio. That mainspring looks like a home made one and maybe the sear spring..
His phone # is 1-330-234-4500. He no longer has E mail.
I had inquiries about this lock and several want to know why I called it a Ketland.
Years ago,a local man had a smooth "rifle" with an identical lock that was marked
"Ketland" and it had a similar mechanism to this one. I think I made the first one
in 1976,I used the linked spring system I worked up for the Shoults lock.I haven't
made one since 2008. It was for a rifle I made for myself that was inspired by a
Swiss semi military rifle in 58 caliber.I had the external parts in a bench drawer for
35 years or more and decided to use them.

Bob Roller

[New Jersey Devil]

Well, at least that answers the question about what kind of lock it is.

Next, does anyone know who is a likely candidate to send to for repairs based on my pics, and how much that would likely cost?   Or, not to put the cart before the horse, is this a quality lock worthy of repair, or am I better off buying a new lock to place in the rifle?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

It appears to me that the sear is not being allowed to rotate freely...help up by dried up dirt, oil and corruption.  The sear cannot drop into the half cock notch.   Further, I see no fly or detent.  The sear will most likely hit the edge of the tumbler's half cock notch when it IS working.
There are at least a dozen people on this site that are capable of making this rifle function like new, and I would wager, at a price you could afford.  Or you can continue to learn about it, and tinker until you understand it thoroughly.  What have you to do that would be more fulfilling?
I suspect your triggers will have the same crud issues, and will need to be withdrawn, cleaned and polished.
This is all fun stuff.
I agree with the others...this second rifle is twice the rifle that is the first you showed us.  It's architecture alone outshines the first one.

[New Jersey Devil]

It appears to me that the sear is not being allowed to rotate freely...help up by dried up dirt, oil and corruption.  The sear cannot drop into the half cock notch.   Further, I see no fly or detent.  The sear will most likely hit the edge of the tumbler's half cock notch when it IS working.
There are at least a dozen people on this site that are capable of making this rifle function like new, and I would wager, at a price you could afford.  Or you can continue to learn about it, and tinker until you understand it thoroughly.  What have you to do that would be more fulfilling?
I suspect your triggers will have the same crud issues, and will need to be withdrawn, cleaned and polished.
This is all fun stuff.
I agree with the others...this second rifle is twice the rifle that is the first you showed us.  It's architecture alone outshines the first one.

Well the shop I took it to advised me not to try to fix it myself.  Also mentioned I'd need a special vice etc... to properly make the fix.  Intimated that it's probably not a particularly expensive fix or a hard fix, but that the toughest part might be just finding the people who know how to do this as it's apparently getting harder to find folks, which is kinda sad.  I'm not at all a very mechanically inclined person to begin with, so I think it's wise to take the shop owner's advice, and just get the rifle up and running, though I would like to learn more eventually.  I'm intrigued by how locks paradoxically seems both a very simple, yet complex device.

[davebozell]

There are lots of videos out there showing how to take apart a lock.  Get a spring vise and give it a try.  I'd advise taking the lock apart on your kitchen table where it will be easy to keep track of the parts.  (Don't ask me how I know all about this....)😀

[oldtravler61]

  NJD first what you need to do is clean it like Taylor said to you. Then call the person that Bob said for parts if you need them. Third get the crud off the lock. Then check to see if it works better. If it doesn't. Then  get a frizzen spring vise. About ten bucks or if your careful a small vise grip to take the main spring off. Then disassemble the lock an clean all it's internals. Take a picture or two so you remember how it goes back together. Clean every part. Stone the rough areas an reassemble. I'm sure you can do it. The guy's in the know will tell you an me if I left something out. Last but not least work in a clean area. Cause if you drop those tiny screws there gone. Hope this helps..Bob an Taylor know there stuff..!!  Oldtravler

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

As much as I appreciate OT61's input, I advise strongly against using a pair of vise grips on any part of the lock.  A main spring vise will take the mainspring and frizzen spring off with out damage.  The vise grip will likely end up with a two piece mainspring.

[New Jersey Devil]

What's likely the worst that can happen when a noobie attempts this and fails?  You're talking to someone who's mechanical ability pathetically reaches its' absolute zenith while changing the brakes on his SUV, and it's a minor miracle I can accomplish that.  I'm a financial analyst, and people who are financial analysts do so because they would starve to death if they were plumbers or carpenters or machinists, etc...   Dont get me wrong, I would like to learn how to disassemble/reassemble a lock, but think it's probably wiser buying a cheap lock to learn with rather than the one that fits my rifle.    One detail I failed to mention, which may be meaningless anyway, is that the R.O. on the barrel is thought to be a Rod Olsen (or Olson).  Dunno is anyone's ever heard of him or if he's just a hobbyist.

[Bob Roller]

What's likely the worst that can happen when a noobie attempts this and fails?  You're talking to someone who's mechanical ability pathetically reaches its' absolute zenith while changing the brakes on his SUV, and it's a minor miracle I can accomplish that.  I'm a financial analyst, and people who are financial analysts do so because they would starve to death if they were plumbers or carpenters or machinists, etc...   Dont get me wrong, I would like to learn how to disassemble/reassemble a lock, but think it's probably wiser buying a cheap lock to learn with rather than the one that fits my rifle.    One detail I failed to mention, which may be meaningless anyway, is that the R.O. on the barrel is thought to be a Rod Olsen (or Olson).  Dunno is anyone's ever heard of him or if he's just a hobbyist.

To dismantle the lock,bring it to full cock and gently capture the mainspring with a small "C" clamp or a mainspring vise.
remove the spring and then,after soaking the mechanism in a GOOD penetrating agent like Kroil,Liquid Wrench,Break Free or a
50-50 mix of transmission fluid and acetone. Let it soak over night and then,with screw drivers that fit the screw slots and see
if they will turn. If they do,remove the sear spring first,then the sear and finally,the bridle.The fly in this lock is between the tumbler and
the plate so be careful not to drop it IF it is free.This is NOT a complex mechanism but caution is still needed for the first timer.
If you can change the brakes on you car then a lock will present no problems and if you can't get the brakes to work,install
a very loud horn.

Bob Roller
 

[smokinbuck]

Rod Olsen, if I'm remembering correctly,  is from Minnesota.  I had a pistol made by him some time ago.  I think he did them on the side and was primarily a farmer.  Did a nice job in the pistols and might be your man.
Mark

[EC121]

Just remember to remove the spring from the vise while it is out of the lock.  I  have heard they could snap if kept under the vise tension. 

[Martin S.]

New Jersey Devil,

You can do this, Bob just explained how.

It is not that hard.

I suggest that as you remove each part, you take a picture, that way you can put it back together.

Listen to Bob, he knows locks.

[New Jersey Devil]

To dismantle the lock,bring it to full cock and gently capture the mainspring with a small "C" clamp or a mainspring vise.
remove the spring and then,after soaking the mechanism in a GOOD penetrating agent like Kroil,Liquid Wrench,Break Free or a
50-50 mix of transmission fluid and acetone. Let it soak over night and then,with screw drivers that fit the screw slots and see
if they will turn. If they do,remove the sear spring first,then the sear and finally,the bridle.The fly in this lock is between the tumbler and
the plate so be careful not to drop it IF it is free.This is NOT a complex mechanism but caution is still needed for the first timer.
If you can change the brakes on you car then a lock will present no problems and if you can't get the brakes to work,install
a very loud horn.

Thanks for the info, two questions:

1)  Do you have a recommendation on the type/model of this little specilized vice I should buy?
2) I believe you are saying after removing the spring, the entire lock should go into the Kroil bath for the 24 hours?

[New Jersey Devil]

Rod Olsen, if I'm remembering correctly,  is from Minnesota. I had a pistol made by him some time ago.  I think he did them on the side and was primarily a farmer.  Did a nice job in the pistols and might be your man.
Mark

Hi Mark,

Do you still have that pistol, and if so is it inscribed with the same R.O.?  I've read that not all makers sign/inscribe the same way over their career, so I guess I couldnt rule him out if it's not the same, but if it is exactly the same, then I would know 100% it's him.  Thanks.

[davebozell]

Jim Chambers carries an appropriate mainspring vise.  A good set of screwdrivers would also be good idea. 

[Bob Roller]

To dismantle the lock,bring it to full cock and gently capture the mainspring with a small "C" clamp or a mainspring vise.
remove the spring and then,after soaking the mechanism in a GOOD penetrating agent like Kroil,Liquid Wrench,Break Free or a
50-50 mix of transmission fluid and acetone. Let it soak over night and then,with screw drivers that fit the screw slots and see
if they will turn. If they do,remove the sear spring first,then the sear and finally,the bridle.The fly in this lock is between the tumbler and
the plate so be careful not to drop it IF it is free.This is NOT a complex mechanism but caution is still needed for the first timer.
If you can change the brakes on you car then a lock will present no problems and if you can't get the brakes to work,install
a very loud horn.

Thanks for the info, two questions:

1)  Do you have a recommendation on the type/model of this little specilized vice I should buy?
2) I believe you are saying after removing the spring, the entire lock should go into the Kroil bath for the 24 hours?

Yes,submerge it and let it sit in the penetrant at least over night.

Bob Roller

[Darkhorse]

I guess I'm the odd man out here as from what you have told us about yourself, I would NOT attempt this repair but would wait until I could find someone to do it for me. A flintlock is not really a complex assembly. Especially if you've taken a few apart and put them back together. But for one with absolutely no experience taking apart a flintlock and trying to fix one this  could be a really scary thing to do. The lock has been this way for years it won't hurt it to wait just a little longer to be sure it's done right. It would be bad to break a main spring right off.
If you do do it please get a mainspring vice. This is what one looks like. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1038/1
When I do lock work I spread a large, soft, white towel (like a beach towel maybe) on the table top. When a part hits the towel it stops it right there. A hard surface will cause one to bounce. When driving pins or when I might lose a small part. I take a roll of something like duct tape and put the lock plate over the hole and drive or drop little parts into the hole on top of the towel.
Get a set of real gun screwdrivers, they ARE different. Being hollow ground to fit a gun screw.

http://stolzergunsmithing.wordpress.com/2012/04/23/lock-disassembly-tutorial-video/  I found this video on this site, look at Tutorials for gunmaking, child boards, Tutorials and tools for metal working. Watch this video and it should clear some things up.