Author Topic: An unsigned rifle,  (Read 2451 times)

Offline louieparker

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An unsigned rifle,
« on: April 02, 2017, 02:10:05 AM »
Its hard to  believe a rifle like this isn't signed by the maker.  There are some vacant areas in the engraving that appear to be for names or initials. But not a mark anywhere.  Do you think he might have been displeased with its outcome ? LP

It has a 43 inch barrel and the bore measures .310........LP
















Offline dogbest

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2017, 02:31:16 AM »
Beautiful rifle.

Offline Joe S.

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2017, 02:38:37 AM »
Not really sure how to post this without pissing folks off but.........man is an arrogant creature and needs to prove he was here,heck I'm one of 'em but every so often you find a fellow who doesn't care about such things and creates something for love of the game and doesn't need the accolades

Online Mike Brooks

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2017, 02:43:44 AM »
Saw and handled this gun at Princeton, it's an exceptional gun.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Molly

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2017, 03:14:33 PM »
Very nice indeed.  But the world is full of unsigned works.  I cannot understand why someone who made something like that would not sign it UNLESS the work itself was viewed as the signature.  In the day it was made probably all around knew of it and its maker??  Thus there was no need to sign it.  I know a current builder who has over 150 custom works and he said the first 15 or so were never signed.  "Why?", I asked.  All he said was it just did not seem to be important.

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2017, 04:03:22 PM »
  Molly you make a valid point. People probably knew of the man's work an that was enough for him. An like you said he took pride in what he did an no other recognition was necessary. Now day's in my opinion some are over marked. There is one fellow in my area that does very good engraving firearms an then in big block letters is what number it is, the town where he resides. To me it takes away from the beauty of the firearm. But then that's just me.  Oldtravler

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2017, 05:49:28 PM »
Yes that is one fine rifle. I love the breech treatment and what I assume is a lot of English influence. Maybe Philadelphia.

Offline jdm

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2017, 07:32:39 PM »
WOW!  What an outstanding rifle! IT looks like he might of missed engraving a spot though.
JIM

Offline JTR

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2017, 08:01:24 PM »
Well Louie, It doesn't look exactly like you engraving style, so I'll assume you didn't make it. ..... Though I'm not sure that's a 100% safe assumption!
John
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Offline louieparker

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2017, 09:40:02 PM »
JTR, Saying "It doesn't look exactly like my engraving style" is certainly a true statement. Only in my dreams could I do that. But JDM, I could probably do the bare spots.

I agree with the thinking of both Joe and Molly.  Things were far more local then and people probably recognized their work. It didn't have to be signed to know the maker. Sort of like looking at a Model T Ford. You don't have to read the name.
I don't recall seeing an unsigned John Armstrong. He  signed both lock and barrel. George Eister, another top maker seemed to have far more unsigned than signed. Did Armstrong have a bigger ego ?? Who knows.
The fellow who did own this rifle thought is was made in Philadelphia. I think it was made in the South . But that's another story...LP

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2017, 09:55:38 PM »
A classy rifle for sure!  Check out the filing of that huge breech plug.  Fabulous hardware.  Patchbox - an inletting masterpiece.  LOve it all.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline jdm

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2017, 01:31:46 AM »
Louie are you thinking Mississippi?
JIM

Offline Buck

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2017, 02:21:00 AM »
Louie,

I was admiring this rifle at Princeton, great gun.

Buck

Offline jdm

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2017, 02:53:54 AM »

Quote Buck
I was admiring this rifle at Princeton, great gun.
 I wasn't going to mention Princeton . You know how he likes to show off !  There was some great stuff there but you and Louie were  riding on top. This is probably the nicest half stock I've seen .
JIM

Offline Brent English

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2017, 03:02:34 AM »
I saw it there too and told Louie while I wasn't a big fan of back action locked half stocks, I could sure make an exception with this one.  Even more fantastic in person.  I think its just great when people bring guns like these to shows for "show and tell". 
Done right is better than done fast.

Offline WElliott

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2017, 06:11:06 AM »
Louie, you may well be right about a Deep South origin of this beauty. And, I agree, the maker simply did not need to sign it for his work to be easily recognized in his market area.
Wayne Elliott

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2017, 03:08:36 PM »
Is that a cap box in the toe decoration?
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Offline louieparker

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2017, 06:31:38 PM »
You know what they say about opinions. My opinion , this rifle was made by Daniel Searles and Rees Fitzpatrick. They worked almost next door to each other in Baton Rouge La., until Rees went to work with Odell in Natchez Ms. These names may not be overly familiar to some collectors but both were outstanding craftsman. They are probably better  known for their knife and sword making. But sometimes combined their efforts in gun building. Rees was a silversmith and is known for using  cornucopias  in his decoration. There was a rifle in a Ms. collection that had three cornucopias . Two in the silver patch box and one in gold on the cheek piece. The rifle we are discussing only has the two on the box. The only gold is the center of the mother of pearl flowers. The engraving,  style of the silver work and overall workmanship  led me to my conclusion.  After comparing it to a signed rifle.



Yes the toe inlay has a workable cap box.

Jdm.  Mississippi is very close and I couldn't rule it out.  :)

Offline Buck

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2017, 01:51:59 AM »
Jim,

Thank you, Louie's rifle really caught my eye. I'm not a follower of this style of rifle, but when I went by I picked it up and looked at it and then returned several other times. It's was definitely talking to me, great piece / true craftsmanship.

Buck

Offline ron w

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2017, 03:50:16 PM »
my interests in long rifles lie in the percussion era,.....that rifle is very inspiring .

Offline Curt J

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2017, 06:56:16 AM »
A truly fine rifle, and my interests are also primarily percussion era.  Over the years I have seen some really magnificent rifles that are completely unsigned. You always wonder why someone would create something like this and yet not sign it.

Online oakridge

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2017, 04:34:26 AM »
Louie,
I sent you a PM with some info that may be of interest.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2017, 02:51:17 AM »
A truly fine rifle, and my interests are also primarily percussion era.  Over the years I have seen some really magnificent rifles that are completely unsigned. You always wonder why someone would create something like this and yet not sign it.

Elegance in the grand manner and craftsmanship that is superb.Whoever made this one had more than a passing idea
as to what a half stock caplock should be.The inlay work is in another class by itself.

Bob Roller

Offline Arcturus

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2017, 10:13:50 PM »
Well, unlike some here, I have very little interest in 19th Century half-stock percussion guns.  But like everyone else, I like this gun a lot!  Excellent workmanship and really beautiful.  Thanks for sharing the photos of this gem.
Jerry

Online Gun_Nut_73

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Re: An unsigned rifle,
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2017, 10:37:11 PM »
I have encountered this mentality in the past in other crafts.  Some makers refuse to sign their work, believing that anyone who knows them would recognize their work, and those who did not recognize their work didn't deserve to know who made it.