Author Topic: Size of Original Shooting Bags?  (Read 13318 times)

Smokey Plainsman

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Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« on: April 02, 2017, 06:00:15 PM »
Of what dimensions were original 18th and 19th century shooting bags? I have a small modern made bag here that is 7" wide and 6" tall, about 2" deep. I am wondering if that is too small? Were some shooting bags small like this?



Just looking for some input on the sizes of original shooting bags. Thanks!

Offline skillman

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2017, 06:24:25 PM »
My experience is that "most" were deeper than wide or equal depth and width. 7 inches is a good average. Grant's book "The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch is an old but still very good source for information. He included size on most.
It is also my observation that beginning shooters and some not so beginners, tend to carry an overnight bag as a pouch. If you know your gun and are experienced, you really don't need all that much. Having other things available might be handy when things go awry but the better you get, the less you need. Also, remember that these were hunters mostly. Only a few shots were fired on any given day.

Steve
Steve Skillman

Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2017, 07:05:28 PM »
By "deeper" what do you mean? Thickness of the whole bag or just how deep the inside goes down?

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2017, 07:13:21 PM »
I think Steve is dead on in his response. Most modern shooters new, and old, have a shooting bag that is more like luggage for the time period, than it is a shooting bag. Between a dazzling array of modern contraptions, they have bottles, and tins, of every imaginable shape, and size, filled with magic shoot straight concoctions. The few original shooting bags I have seen are very minimal in size, capacity, and compartments.
 I blame the Rendezvous for this. Most of us shoot more in an afternoon at Rendezvous than the old timers shot in a month. So, one has to be prepared for all kind of malfunctions, and breakdowns, which pretty much fills up your Sampsonite shooting bag.

 Hungry Horse

Dave Patterson

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2017, 08:45:31 PM »
I'd also hazard the guess that most of the old bags were quite a bit smaller than a lot of the modern-made "replicas", for one simple reason:  most folks, given space, fill it up, and bags get heavy, fast.  (Just ask your significant other:  most, errr... mature... ladies find themselves tending toward smaller and smaller purses, over time).

By no means all, but some of those oldtimers carried those bags as an everyday accessory:  it'd be a little tough to get a day's work done with some of today's "shoulder luggage" bags ahangin in the way.

Offline skillman

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2017, 09:29:10 PM »
I'm referring to the outline dimensions of the bag. Like a straight on drawing of the bag. Think wide, side to side, and deep, up and down. While there were/are gusseted bags, (pieces sewn around the edges of the front and back as you have) many were very simple affairs. Some three pieces sewn around the edges, some simply one piece of leather folded twice and the edges sewn up the sides. Some sewn and then turned inside out, some not. Think "TOOL" not decoration. Not true in all cases but very often. We tend to want fancy to impress. They just needed a tool.

Steve
Steve Skillman

Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2017, 10:28:34 PM »
Okay guys below are photos of my new hunting bag that I had made up for my 19th century percussion .36 caliber squirrel rifle that Jackie Brown is making me. I took pictures with a ruler in them for scale:









Can anyone out there tell me if this sized bag is "authentic"? Is it too small? About right? Also, does the style appear appropriate for a 19th century percussion squirrel rifle? Thanks!

Offline skillman

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2017, 10:53:04 PM »
Looks good to me. If you are happy with it, it's just right. Use it hard for a few years and it will look even better.

Steve
Steve Skillman

Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2017, 11:21:59 PM »
Looks good to me. If you are happy with it, it's just right. Use it hard for a few years and it will look even better.

Steve

So it is HC in both dimensions and design? Thank you for the help!

Dave Patterson

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2017, 11:24:35 PM »
A body don't need much, to shoot squirrels.  Looks just right to me, for what that's worth.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2017, 11:54:20 PM »
Size is fine, shape seems Ok but I'm not an expert on 19th century pouches. Can't say I care for that closure method, though.

You may not want to hear this, but the cloth lining is dubious at best, and the leather looks to be chrome-tanned, which isn't PC for anything prior to 1870 or so.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2017, 01:39:03 AM »
Size is fine, shape seems Ok but I'm not an expert on 19th century pouches. Can't say I care for that closure method, though.

You may not want to hear this, but the cloth lining is dubious at best, and the leather looks to be chrome-tanned, which isn't PC for anything prior to 1870 or so.

 :(

That... is unfortunate. I just did some research and it appears chrome tanned leather is weak. Apparently the maker of my bag used some cheap materials. It sure cost enough, though.  >:(

Offline Chris in Washington

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2017, 02:14:40 AM »
 Elnathan - Just wondering..... what makes you think that it's chrome tanned leather?

Chris
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bowman48

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2017, 03:13:31 AM »
I have been making shooting pouches for the past three years, but have been doing sketches of pouches for several years, along with measurements when possible.  The bulk of the bags I have measured have been between 6" - 7" wide and 8" - 9" long.  I have found very few with gussets, and those have all been of higher quality.  They were probably made by a harness maker or some other professional leather craftsman and many of those were much bigger than usual.  I mainly use goat, sheep, and calfskin to make my bags and rub then down several times with bear grease for a final finish.  Many of the originals were very small.  There are some in the museum at Blue Licks State Park near Paris, Kentucky that are tiny.  Hope this helps a little.

Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2017, 04:11:50 AM »
So if my bag is not authentic, can someone recommend me a maker who does in fact make them to be HC/PC? I am wanting the most historically accurate bag that is humanly possible.

Offline skillman

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2017, 06:02:34 AM »
Remember that very few original bags survive. Most info is largely speculation. Pictures(paintings), descriptions in books, logs, and letters. Do some research and make your own decisions based on research. Pick the brains of people you admire and trust. In the meantime I wouldn't be embarrassed to carry the bag you have. You are not going to be perfect ever. Do the best you can with what you have.

Steve
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Offline Monty59

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2017, 10:28:16 AM »
Plainsman, for an authentic style bag maybe  ask  Eric Fleisher  -  http://www.efleishershotpouches.com  -  he made real good ones also a nice guy !

Monty

Offline EricEwing

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2017, 04:38:51 PM »
Plainsman, for an authentic style bag maybe  ask  Eric Fleisher  -  http://www.efleishershotpouches.com  -  he made real good ones also a nice guy !

Monty

Besides the excellent quality, his work consists almost exclusively of exacting bench copies of originals, or closely follows or is inspired by original bags. And he has several of them for sale right now for awesome prices.

Offline grabenkater

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2017, 04:48:52 PM »
So if my bag is not authentic, can someone recommend me a maker who does in fact make them to be HC/PC? I am wanting the most historically accurate bag that is humanly possible.

Time and place and station in society will have to be answered before you can settle on a bag.
When a nation forgets her skill in war, when her religion becomes a mockery, when the whole nation becomes a nation of money-grabbers, then the wild tribes, the barbarians drive in... Who will our invaders be? From whence will they come?

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2017, 05:28:47 PM »
So if my bag is not authentic, can someone recommend me a maker who does in fact make them to be HC/PC? I am wanting the most historically accurate bag that is humanly possible.

  http://ewingscreekpouches.blogspot.com/

  Tim C.

Offline PPatch

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2017, 06:39:41 PM »
I believe your question was about the dimensions of the old bags, not the size and contents of modern ones...

Bag maker Eric Fleisher has been mentioned earlier in the thread and he fabricated my shooting bag. Eric is an excellent bag maker! If you go to his website you'll see examples of his work, most with dimensions. His work is primarily based on old time bags. The bag he made for me was a direct copy of a late 1700's bag found in Beavertown, PA. Here we see the original alongside one of Eric's reproductions...



Its outside dimensions are...







9 1/2" wide X 7 3/4" long, when flat it is approx 1/4 inch thick. It holds all I need for a walk in the woods.

dave

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Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2017, 10:17:51 PM »
Wow! That is really cool, and a sharp bag indeed! I'm not so pleased with the one I had made for me. Should have done more research. Think I'll be selling it and use the money towards a proper bag, one made with good vegetable tanned leather and with historical correctness in mind.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 11:23:35 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2017, 02:07:42 AM »
Elnathan - Just wondering..... what makes you think that it's chrome tanned leather?

Chris


It looks like chrome-tanned? Kinda hard to describe. :P

Pretty much all modern leather, unless stated otherwise, is chrome-tanned. Go into a crafts or hobby store and look at anything marked "leather" without a qualifier (as opposed to something like "tooling leather") is going to be chrome-tanned, as far as I know. It tends to be pretty soft, very fuzzy on the flesh side, and because chrome-tanned leather is naturally a kind of pale green, I believe, it is dyed to make it better looking. Smokey Plainsman's bag has a big color difference between grain side and flesh side, which is a clue (not all chrome-tanned leather has that much a difference, though).

I'm very far from being an expert on leather of any kind, but I do have a sample apiece of three different period types of leather, an alum-tawed, hair-on calfskin, some brain-tanned buckskin, and a piece of bark-tanned deerskin. the only one which come anywhere close to the leather under discussion is the bark-tan. Since it is full grain, with the epidermis left on, it does show a difference in texture between outside and flesh side (though not as pronounced as chrome-tanned), but being undyed the color is very consistent between sides. Of course, barktanned can be dyed too...

One thing to do is to look at the edge where the leather has been cut - if there is a a white or pinkish layer right in the middle than it is almost certainly chrome-tanned. Don't think that all chrome-tanned shows this, but if it is 1/16" thick or so most will, I think. Some of the thinner leathers are dyed right through, I imagine.

Once you know what to look for it is pretty obvious.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 02:11:20 AM by Elnathan »
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2017, 03:31:03 AM »
Yes... I'm sad to say that my bag does feel pretty thin, especially the little "buckle" thing. It feels like it could tear at any moment. I was hoping for a tough historically authentic bag, as I tried to make it clear to the maker, but I'm not really happy with what I was sent.

I wonder if Eric Fleisher used vegetable tanned historical leathers? I really like what I've seen from him.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Size of Original Shooting Bags?
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2017, 05:05:49 AM »
T.C. Albert suggests using 3-4 ounce (veggie-tanned) leather in his book on pouches. That is 3/64-1/16" thick. Leather doesn't have to be all that thick to be tough enough for your purpose. My pouch, made of that aforementioned bark-tanned deerskin, is about 8 ounces on average and is probably overkill (though I do like that thick, stiff strap, coming to think of it...)

A couple things I suggest you do before you order another pouch. First, get ahold of a couple books: Madison Grant, The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch; T.C. Albert, Recreating the 18th Century Hunting Pouch; and the Book of Buckskinning, Vol. VI, which contains an article on hunting pouches. The Book of Buckskinning and Madison Grant's book are probably available via Interlibrary Loan (I know they were at one point, 'cause that is how I got them...), you will probably have to buy T.C. Albert's book. Those will give you an idea of what the historically correct choices are - for the mid 19th century you have a quite a variety to choose from.

Once you have an idea of what you are looking at, you can think about whether you want to recreate a "poorboy" set of accoutrements to go with your rifle, or a high-end set, or something in between.  IIRC you aren't a reenactor. You don't have to have a persona (I don't) but it wouldn't be a bad idea to figure out what kind of person would have used the kind of rifle you are going to be using and to use that as a basis for picking out what kind of bag would go best with it.

At that point you should have an idea of what you are shooting for, which allows you to know what kind of questions to ask. Ask here, and ask the person who will be making your pouch.

In the meantime, you can be using the pouch you already have...actual use may give you a better idea of what you want functionally out of your next one.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling