Stock scraping question

[Nordnecker]

Those are some gorgeous stocks shown. When you guys say that these stocks were scraped, does that mean they were ONLY scraped? Only scraped as in no sandpaper or abrasive used at all? I've planed and scraped furniture and flat woodwork, but havn't been able to ONLY scape a gunstock. I've only used red maple and walnut. There is always some little spot where the grain just won't cut cleanly and I have to sand. I wish I didn't because I hate sanding and trying to chase away the inevitable scratches. I apreciate the honest work and gentle undulating appearance of a planed or scraped surface as opposed to a glass flat one.

[ron w]

the point i'm trying to make is that a scraper that is properly made has a cutting edge that is 90 degrees (or there about) to the body of the scraper. when the scraper is held at an angle to the work piece, that cutting edge is positioned to act similar to a plane's blade and cleanly cuts the fibers, not tearing them off. a razor blade or UT knife blade or piece of glass, can only tear fibers off by pinching the fibers under the sharp edge and pulling them off the surface, essentially tearing the fibers. this leaves a considerably less smooth and a some-what crushed surface the same as sandpaper would produce, disallowing the finish to penetrate as deeply as a truly clean cut off surface would allow.  this is done by cutting the fibers not crushing and tearing them. the whole idea is to get away from the kind of surface sandpaper leaves so that the finish can do the job it is supposed to do.
  i.ve recently received some aggressive e-mails from someone who evidently didn't like something I posted,..... I do not know who I ticked off or why they got ticked off because some true and accurate information was posted on their thread, ..but I find it really childish coming from a site that is made up of mostly skilled adults and tradesmen that have learned their skill by reading, listening and thinking about proper procedures, then doing them. I simply posted true information that I have come to know over the 35 or so years I have as a wood worker. if that upsets you, I can't help it, but I certainly refuse to apologize for posting good useful and accurate information.

[n stephenson]

Mitch and Dave, Those are some fine rifles you have shown us . I only wish we could have seen how beautiful they would have been without all the compressed fibers. If only that finish had been allowed to get through all those torn and compressed fibers there`s no telling how good they could be . I`m in a real dilemna  here , I want my rifles to someday look as nice as those in the pics but, if I`m ruining the beauty of my wood with the methods used on these rifles I must stop. If someone that has experience with" correct "scrapers would post some pics of their work for comparison it would help everyone here to decide if we want to continue to destroy our work by using "incorrect" tools. Please someone ! help! It would be very nice to SEE the difference. Nice wood is too expensive to keep getting bad results. JMHO

[WadePatton]

Scrapers with hooks???

Scraping takes on a whole new level when you get a proper burr/hook and shave the wood, not shear.  Make 'em curls no dust.  Also a big burr is fragile, a wee burr lasts longer.  No limit to the size/shapes one can make.

Oh I dread the sandy papers.

[smart dog]

Hi Ron,
I completely agree with you about the angle of the shearing lip of a properly burnished scraper.  However, the carving knives and blade scrapers also cut nice and cleanly when sharp and I do not hold then perpendicular with the wood, rather they are at an angle.  However, they dull quickly because the angle is more obtuse than the angle of a scraper lip to the wood.  They must be sharpened often.  That is why I don't use razor blades but prefer the thicker carpet scraper blades, which can be easily honed to scary sharp. 

Nordnecker, the rifle I show was rasped, filed and scraped, no sandpaper was used at all.  The surface has a very pleasing rippled texture because of the scraping.  I don't do that on all of my guns.  It just depends on my objectives for each project.

dave

[okieboy]

 "I only wish we could have seen how beautiful they would have been without all the compressed fibers."

 Usually we judge techniques by results. Saying that these results could have been "better" if only these remarkable craftsmen had used the "correct" techniques is mystifying at best. Craftsmen who can produce results like these are certainly welcome to teach me how to do things the "wrong" way.

[rich pierce]

No sense in getting upset because people don't agree with you or find a different approach works for them. We share knowledge and experience here. None of us is the final decider of the one and only proper way. If that's anyone's goal they should teach a class where they get to fail the students.

[Long John]

Friends,

Scrapers are tools that I have come to rely upon for much of my wood finish work.  With all scrapers it is the burr that does the work.  Whether you are using a conventional flat honed square edge with a rolled burr made with a burnishing rod on the squared edge, or the sharpened scraper (like Allen Martin) where the last sharpening pass rolls the burr, you are still using the burr to do the cutting.  Both tools have their place in my little smithy.  Sometimes I will use the large, conventional cabinet scrapers with a nice square edge and burr rolled.  I find that I get a finer cut if I sharpen the edge square on my diamond plates after filing.  Then the burr is glassy smooth and the shavings are OH-So-fine!.  But, for small spots, especially around carving I use my home-made pull scrapers that are filed to a sharp edge.  Honing that sharp edge on a diamond stone and pulling the wire-edge/burr over on the last stroke gives me the same level of cut but in a smaller, more maneuverable package.  Both types of scrapers compliment each other.  For me, it is not an exclusive either-or proposition.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[mountainman]

okay i know about burrs, i just never heard of the terminology, for the same as being hooks,,,

[ron w]

" hook" is just a slang word for the "burr". it comes from the fact that by the design of a scraper's burr, you are actually "hooking" fibers and peeling them off the work piece..

[David Price]

Dave,

I really like that star behind the cheek piece.  Don't be surprised if you see it in one of my rifles in the future.
Of course I will swear that it was my idea!!!

David Price

[Mauser06]

As many of you know or have figured out, I am new to building. 


When I was working on my first I wanted to scrape it. 


I actually bought scrapers and a Veritas variable burnisher. 


The burnisher was money well spent IMO.  Can set a burr upto 15 degrees which will take off a fair bit of wood. Can get in trouble quick if you aren't paying attention.  I like the variable burnisher because it's controlled. Set it the same and you know how your tool is going to cut. Ive been cleaning up the stock with a 15 degree burr. Whiskering with a 10 and then a 5. Don't know that it makes a difference but made sense in my head lol..


After scraping, I doubt I ever sand wood to finish it again.  Faster for me too than sand paper. And IMO a cleaner finish.  We have a few "scratches" where I was using the wrong tool for the job and slightly caught the stock with the corner of the scraper. Stocks I've sanded I find many imperfections from sanding.

Now I use sand paper like a rasp...To remove wood. Not to finish it. 


One thing...People here mention feeling ripples on their scraped stocks....I must did it wrong cause mine is smooth. Can't feel the curl or anything really. A few spots you might be able to slightly feel the curl but mine came out smooth.  Might help that I rubbed out my finish by hand and between coats..I don't know. 

[ron w]

the ripples come from using razor blades and such,.....the shar edge digs in tears the fibers off then lets go when the fibers tear creating troughs that eventually blend into ripples. real scrapers don't do that because they have an actual cutting edge that stys clean and continually cuts evenly.  with a razor blade you have to hold it more or less perpendicular to the work surface, this allows the sharp edge to dig in and grab the fibers it tears off. the more perpendicular you hold the blade the worse it's potential to creates troughs, the less perpendicular you hold the blade, the less likely it will act like a scraper, and the more likely it will just burnish the surface, preventing the brilliance of grain structure from the finish to penetrating deeply into clean cut open pores.....

[Meteorman]

Beatin a comatose horse here, but I think, respectfully, Ron you may be missing the message with the use of  razorblade or utilty blade scrapers. Many of us turn a burr/hook on them prior to use, similar to your basic cabinet scraper. Long John noted this above. The wood removal actions are the same.  I have never used an out-of-the-pack utility blade, but once you roll the edge correctly on a fine stone, its a beautiful experience.  It is not held vertically. Its held at an angle just like a cabinet scraper, and only works on one side of the blade - the side to which you rolled the burr, obviously.
Mark Wheland showed me how to do it - treat the edge, that is - he may have learned it from Allan Martin.

[smart dog]

Dave,

I really like that star behind the cheek piece.  Don't be surprised if you see it in one of my rifles in the future.
Of course I will swear that it was my idea!!!

David Price

You go right ahead, Dave.  I like the effect.  Especially, by putting the star, sun, cross, etc., off center so it has perspective. Like you are looking up or down on it.  My inspiration began with this composition, a design I still really love:



dave

[n stephenson]

Meteor Man , That`s the way I was shown also . .

[thimble rig]

Oh Dave I really like a lot,thats beautiful.Do you have any more pictures of that rifle?That sun and moon are awesome.I love looking at youre guys creations.

[okieboy]

 Also, nobody has mentioned that not all scraping is done on surfaces that will be seen. I scrape a lot when fitting parts like the butt-plate or the bottom of an inlet. I have all kinds of scrapers and make new ones to custom shapes for specific jobs; but a common handy scraper for me when fitting is dragging the very sharp and very burr-less end of a bench chisel. It works really well.

[Roger B]

I'm sold.  I'm going to try scraping on the .32 I'm slowly building.  Do you have to "de-whisker" with scraping?  What characteristics does the wood show you when you have scraped enough to start finishing?
Roger B.

[n stephenson]

Okie Boy, Very True ! I scrape  a lot with my chisel ends when inletting and to remove wood as needed in small , tight areas . 

[tallbear]

Nordecker

I almost never use sandpaper on the wood of a rifle.I start with rasps,go to files ,then very fine files and finally scapers.Below are a selection of my scrapers(Not all I use are pictured but a sample).I find I rarely use the commercially available cabinet scrapers.Most chisels work well either with a burr or without.The ones on the left are Jerry Fisher scrapers available from Brownells most of which I have modified to suit my use.The scrapers on the right are ones that I made from the blades of the cheap Japanese pull saws from Home Depot.They are my favorites.The material is spring steel but it can be cut with a good pair of shears and shaped with a grinder.Any time I need a new radius I just make a new one,takes about 10 minutes.And finally carpet and sheetrock knife blades.I use these both with and without a bur depending on what i'm doing and often quickly reshape them on a grinder to suit a specific need.I use all these scrapers interchangeably on the same gun side by side with NO discernible difference in quality of finish.

Mitch Yates

[Joe S.]

Dave,

I really like that star behind the cheek piece.  Don't be surprised if you see it in one of my rifles in the future.
Of course I will swear that it was my idea!!!

David Price

You go right ahead, Dave.  I like the effect.  Especially, by putting the star, sun, cross, etc., off center so it has perspective. Like you are looking up or down on it.  My inspiration began with this composition, a design I still really love:



dave

That's some really cool looking inlay,love the way the sun's peaking out from behind the cheek piece.

[smart dog]

Thank you Joe and Thimble Rig,
Notice that the focal point of the scene is the carved scroll in the middle and that its center is about in the middle of a straight line between the sun and moon.  Also notice that the composition is balanced and fills the space without being too ornate.  These things are not accidents.  Thanks again.

dave

[Timothy88]

Dave that is a beautiful stock design with the sun and the moon.

Thanks for sharing.

[Long John]

Dave,

I have to echo some of the others, here.  Your design and use of inlays is Magic!  I love it!  I'm going to steal some ideas from you, I'm warning you now!

JMC