Author Topic: Help for a New Guy  (Read 7657 times)

Offline Cory McArtor

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Help for a New Guy
« on: April 24, 2017, 08:35:54 PM »
Hello all!  I'm new to the ALR forum and to black powder rifles in general.  I've been fascinated by these rifles for a while and have been looking to get one that I can learn to shoot/hunt with.  I recently found this and am considering buying it or trading one of my modern rifles for it.  The problem is, I don't know enough to know if this rifle is worth having.  The current owner doesn't know much about it other than that his father had it made some time in the past.  It is somewhere between 45-50 caliber and if I get it I will measure it to be certain.  Would any of you be able to tell me more about it?  I'm currently waiting on more pictures and will post them as soon as I can.

Thanks,

Cory




Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2017, 09:10:11 PM »
Bore condition is important. I wouldn't give more than $700 for it. Less would be better.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Martin S.

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2017, 10:01:53 PM »
It does not look like it has been well cared for.

I would pass.

There are many on this board who can set you up with a nicer beginner rifle.

Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2017, 05:24:21 AM »
Looks like the wrong style lock for the style of rifle.  Check this out.
https://kiblerslongrifles.com/collections/rifle-kit
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 05:29:03 AM by Nate McKenzie »

Offline EC121

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2017, 06:03:13 AM »
Looks like it was shot and not cleaned well.  Rust around the hammer and pan.  The bore might be the same.  If  you can get access to it and run a patch down the bore, you will know more.  The lock could be cleaned up.  Might make a good first rifle to learn on.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 03:36:57 PM by EC121 »
Brice Stultz

nosrettap1958

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2017, 06:05:26 AM »
Forget it, move on, buy one from here from one of these guys.

Offline blienemann

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2017, 06:24:33 AM »
A bit harsh for a new guy, don't we think?   Hi Cory, and welcome to this collection of gruff old !@#$% and all sorts of critters who enjoy the old longrifles.

Agree with Mike that condition of the bore is important - if bore is good or easily shined up, this could be a fine rifle for anyone.  Hard to tell so far, but looks like a generic Lancaster rifle with Bivins iron hardware and a combination of Siler lock with some modifications to make it more correct, blind tapped frizzen spring, curled tail on frizzen, etc.  Davis triggers?  Either iron or silver pipes and forend cap?  We don't know what barrel.  Plain maple is fine, and lines might be good.  Inletting looks good at lock.  A number of folks sell kits like this, or might be custom given some details.  I like to let lock and barrel in white age naturally - like many of the old guns did.  That's not poor care - if the barrel and lock are maintained.  Looks good on the trail.  This is probably better than the first half dozen rifles I owned.

IF this is a southern mtn rifle, maybe we like an English lock for those, but this may not be an smr, and plenty of fine shooting rifles have Siler locks on them.  We can suggest additional info for the 2nd, 3rd and so on projects.  For a first rifle, this might be a dandy.  Please post more pics, run an oily patch down the barrel and check function.  See if it fits you, if you can sight down the barrel and sights line up.

Re value, a kit or set of parts if straight barrel are how much - $8 - 900?  A finished rifle like this probably $1,500 or so - what would you that have posted charge for a plain Lancaster like this with good parts?  If you can buy or trade for less, great - but there is value there, someone appears to have put some good work in here.  Now if additional photos show something else, we can come back with further comments.

Find someone local to go shooting with, and welcome to the fold.

nosrettap1958

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2017, 06:58:11 AM »
No it isn't a bit harsh. I would never buy a black powder gun off ARMLIST. Buy here at least you know that the previous owner knew what he was doing.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2017, 02:32:17 PM »
Many times I have seen $900 worth of parts turned into a $500 rifle. ;)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Online rich pierce

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2017, 03:20:47 PM »
Its pretty hard to buy a rifle, contemporary or original, from a few so so photos and a vague description.  Maybe the owner doesn't know much but that also could be a red flag.  I would certainly want to know the caliber, the barrel maker, length and dimensions of the barrel, bore condition, the lock maker, whether the set trigger and lock fire cleanly, etc. 

Bore size really does matter if you will hunt with it.

You might be better off posting here in the for sale section that you want a good used rifle, describing what you will use it for, caliber, and historical timeframe if that is important to you.  Per our rules, state a price range.  Chances are you could get a good rifle and some needed accountrements to go with it.  In general you will need a powder horn, shooting bag, power measure, patch material, cleaning jags, extra filints, and some round balls.  For powder you're on your own.  Many of us have piles of "formerly favorite" accoutrements that work just fine.  If you buy a good used rifle you may learn what it likes to feed on, a specific load that shoots well in it.

It really is best to have somebody teach you to load and shoot a flintlock.  It can be done from books and videos but hands on teaching is best.  Might look up the closest NMLRA club and see if someone would spend a morning at the range with you.

Be careful or your modern guns will start collecting dust soon!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 03:24:11 PM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline Cory McArtor

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2017, 06:35:34 PM »
Thanks to everyone for the advice and information! Don't worry about being harsh.  If it isn't worth having I want to know before I buy it.  I'm waiting on more pictures from the seller and absolutely will not buy it (or even drive the couple hours to look at it) without having a better idea of what condition it's in.  Someone (Nate I think) posted a link to Jim Kibler's kits.  I would love to build one of them, but if I go that route I need to save for a while or sell one of my modern guns.  With this one listed at $400 I could get it more immediately.  But if it's better to wait a while longer I can.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2017, 07:23:13 PM »
Hi Munkish,
Welcome to our community.  I urge you to visit this site often and check out all the different discussion sections.  This is the best site on the internet for building and shooting muzzleloaders. The gun you posted has a Chamber's deluxe Siler lock, which should be a very fine lock.  The styling of the gun is generic and suggests to me that it was either a kit or possibly some semi-custom gun like those from TVM.  It could also be a home build but likely using a precarved stock rather than from a plank of wood.  The builder or manufacturer apparently did not bother cleaning up the cast steel hardware very well as they look rough, but that is something you could work on.  If the bore is good and the triggers and lock function properly, it might be a very nice starter rifle for the money.  In addition, it appears to have quite a bit of excess wood left on it so you could also treat it like a mostly finished kit and learn some building skills by slimming it down and reshaping it more finely, especially around the lock. However, as Mike mentioned, the bore should be bright and not pitted by corrosion.   

dave
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Offline Cory McArtor

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2017, 03:12:50 AM »
Here are more pictures of the rifle.  There are a couple of cracks in the wood and a good bit of rust in various places.  The seller hasn't sent a picture looking down the bore, but based on what I can see plus replies from here I think I will pass on this one unless he lowers the price (currently $400 or a low-end AR-15).  I will likely keep saving or sell a modern rifle to get funds quicker.








nosrettap1958

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2017, 04:24:57 AM »
I wouldn't buy it at any price.

What is your budget?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 02:05:25 PM by crawdad »

nosrettap1958

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2017, 04:35:08 AM »

Offline smart dog

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2017, 01:40:02 PM »
Hi,
After seeing the new photos, I agree with Crawdad. 

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2017, 05:17:04 PM »
when you start out, start out with a good functional gun, fancy don't make a gun shoot any better. Learn how to load, shoot and clean it. You will be more successful hunting or target shooting if you know what your doing. Then if you decide you don't like it( not likely) you will have a good gun to sell
instead of a gun like you just showed pictures of. Some good parts went to waste there.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 05:30:14 PM by flinchrocket »

Online Hungry Horse

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2017, 10:57:58 PM »
I don't know if I would right this gun off just yet. The wood , lock, and triggers, are going to cost you the $400. 00 the guy is asking. If the bore is salvageable you will no doubt end up with a gun that is better than most production flintlocks. Just sayin'.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Martin S.

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2017, 03:27:04 AM »
The stock is cracked through the lock bolt.

It has too many issues.

Save your money for something better.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2017, 02:16:49 AM »
Its not worth much based on the workmanship and the damage.  With the split at the lock bolt its a accident waiting to happen if its not properly fixed....
If its not been properly cared for the bore could be pitted and even a light pit can make them very hard to clean and they foul a great deal more.
So over all I would pass. Even if really cheap its too much risk for someone who does not have some experience and knows what to look for.
There are better rifles out there.
Cheap in a ML is almost never good.

Dan
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somehippy

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2017, 02:18:12 AM »
I don't know if I would right this gun off just yet. The wood , lock, and triggers, are going to cost you the $400. 00 the guy is asking. If the bore is salvageable you will no doubt end up with a gun that is better than most production flintlocks. Just sayin'.

Hungry Horse

While I'm a noob to front stuffers, I too would say if the bores in decent shape you could have something light years better than a traditions or Lyman deer Hunter rifle in the same price range.  Worst case scenario you gotta get some new lumber.  I'd be delighted to see such a deal in my neck of the woods (I gotta order everything online internationally).

 

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2017, 06:11:35 PM »
You're not 'merican? :o
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Cory McArtor

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2017, 06:52:23 PM »
Thanks for all the help.  I'm passing on this one, but for those who think it's a good enough deal, here is the original listing.

https://www.armslist.com/posts/6729140/muncie-indiana-muzzle-loaders-for-sale-trade--custom-flintlock-kentucky-rifle

For those asking what my budget is, I was considering trading a (modern gun) I built several years back.  I may just sell (edited out non-sidelock muzzleloading text) I would probably end up with about $900-$1000.  I can't add much more right now because we're on a fairly tight budget right now.  If I go that route I would love to get a Jim Kibler kit or something similar that I could put together in my apartment or in a friend's garage.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 08:08:42 PM by Dennis Glazener »

somehippy

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2017, 08:50:23 PM »
You're not 'merican? :o

Canadian eh, lol.  Our dollar ain't worth much..... Everything I seem to take interest in has little, none or few vendors let alone quality ones.  So I gotta order everything "cool" usually from you 'mericans.  I'd move to 'merica in a heart beat if it were feasible.  Our sporting goods stores are a joke...
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 05:12:41 AM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Help for a New Guy
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2017, 12:40:59 AM »
You're not 'merican? :o

Canadian eh, lol.  Our dollar ain't worth much..... Everything I seem to take interest in has little, none or few vendors let alone quality ones.  So I gotta order everything "cool" usually from you 'mericans.  I'd move to 'merica in a heart beat if it were feasible.  Our sporting goods stores are a joke...
Well, at least you got plenty of Molsons and back bacon...... ;)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 05:13:01 AM by Ky-Flinter »
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?