Update on my Kibler kit gun

[g2608671@verizon.net]

Well, in the home stretch now and after overcoming the application of that Minwax Urethane and reapplying the Permalyn I set out to put the whole thing together today. Oh, by-the-way, taking off the urethane did not disturb the Agua Fortis at all and the reapplication of the Permalyn went smoothly.  Went to Planet Fitness and had a terriffic work out; really busted it today.  Got home, drank a protein drink and had a helping of egg whites with black coffee before a cold shower. Hang in there - this gets better.  Got to work on the gun and found that even tough I could see light through the pin holes I had a devil of a time drifting in the pins. Had to re drill almost all of the pin holes so they pins would set.  Oh well...  Then at the next to last pin insertion, the one at the muzzle end for the ram rod pipe I SPLIT THE STOCK from the end to about 7 inches back and mostly down the ram rod channel although it did meander to the outer side and transverses the channel.  I actually thought that the pin was drifting into the drilled channel but in fact it was pushing on the wood and then "KRACK".  You know folks, under normal circumstances I would have had a conniption fit (if you have never actually seen one of these you should add it to your "bucket list").  Anyhow I got out the Gorilla Glue and a few soft jawed clamps and with the help of my son glued it together and I am now visiting the thing regularly to wipe off the excess.  I have had so much fun with this gun build and have learned so much as well that I view this as another lesson and not a catastrophic failure.  I know the stock will be fine by tomorrow and I plan on taking it to the range and starting to work out the shooting kinks.  Honestly, I hope it takes me a while to find a good target load and a hunting load as well.  I plan on doing a lot of shooting with this rifle. Going to wait for Jim Kibler to get his .50 on the market and have at it again this winter.  I just remembered that someone on this site said that they had completed one of Kibler's kits in a weekend in about 10 hours.  Even if I could do that, I wouldn't. 

[Elnathan]

"Mistakes are learning opportunities," sez I from my comfy chair.

Are the edges of your pins beveled? That might help a lot.

[g2608671@verizon.net]

Yes, I did taper the business end of the pins and that only helped in one of the applications.  I even rotated the pins thinking that a different positioning would help (not).  It made me nuts to be able to see through and through, but the pins made a solid thunk on the metal. Well, except for the one that caused the split....

I need to figure out what I did wrong here so I don't do it again.  But I just don't see the problem. Drill passed through and through, but not the pins.... Hummmm.

[PPatch]

All's well that ends well Polecat. Post some pix of the new shoot'n iron when you get the chance.

happy shooting!

dave

[Elnathan]

Yes, I did taper the business end of the pins and that only helped in one of the applications.  I even rotated the pins thinking that a different positioning would help (not).  It made me nuts to be able to see through and through, but the pins made a solid thunk on the metal. Well, except for the one that caused the split....

I need to figure out what I did wrong here so I don't do it again.  But I just don't see the problem. Drill passed through and through, but not the pins.... Hummmm.

Just guessing wildly here...

How fast did you feed the drill through when reaming out the holes? I'm wondering if the flutes dug into the sides and pulled the bit through without fully widening the hole. I could see that happening using one of those eggbeater type hand drills if you reversed the drill to back out again, as it seems to happen to me a lot.

My second wild guess would be that the hole through the thimble tab wasn't quite lined up, possibly because the redrilled holes in the wood were ever so slightly shifted, or that there were little burrs from the first time that you drilled it that where pushed back into the holeand caused the pin to go off.

[Darkhorse]

It is possible to start a pin crooked and when you tap it in it contacts the opposite side and splits out. I know this for a fact. The hole in the metal underlugs should be filed oblong and a little larger than the pin. This is to accommadate the movement in the barrel as it heats up when shooting. After opening up the underlug holes I would use the same setup you used when drilling the pin holes in the first place, then increase your RPM's and run the same size drill back through the holes until they open up some.
I like my pins where I can push them in with my fingers partway, then light taps with a small hammer to get them below the wood surface. I want to feel the pin as it goes in the hole an if I feel resistance then I stop and see what's going on.

[FALout]

When building, I'll drill the holes and will make a spare pin that is tapered and rounded.  I will run this pin in using a drill, if the hole is off just slightly off from one side to the other, if your slow and careful, you can make a better "guided" hole, if you feel hard resistance you know that things are not aligned.   I will repeat this process of using what I like to call a "guide pin" to re-ream the holes after finishing, the finish build up is usually only at the stock surface.  I'm a little leary of running in a drill bit and having a new hole come out the other side, or changing the direction and not lining up.  With the troubles you've had building, you've learned some good lessons (as long as you apply those lessons on the next one).  Move on and get it finished.

[flehto]

Two questions.....did you elongate the pin holes in the bbl lugs and was the RR pipe put in  reversed? Sometimes the hole is very close to center of the lug but not exactly. .....Fred

[Kingsburyarms]

This may have not been the issue, but sometimes, if the lugs are not marked correctly (front to back AND in order), you can take out the barrel to fix or finish the stock, and if you are finishing the barrel (Draw filing or bluing) you take off the barrel lugs. Now, like this has never happened to me, if you put the "wrong" order of lugs back, I bet those little holes will not line up like they did during construction. Having the pins in and out during building normally opens up the wood enough for a pretty easy slide through the stock, when running into a "hammer fit" on any drilled lug, thimble or guard, If I felt any resistance, I would stop before I could do damage.

I have a 6" piece of 1/8 Piano wire that is tapered on one end, and polished bright that I use to "Hole check" any pin hole before tapping in the final pin.

Just a thought, those pesky lugs and such can get out or order pretty quick.. Mark them with a file, not just a sharpie, as that can wear off..

Jon

[g2608671@verizon.net]

Thanks to all for the support and let me try to respond to all the comments and suggestions.
I took pics periodically of this build form the moment the box arrived until today and will post them as soon as I figure out how to do so.   
Possibly burrs in the holes due to using slow speed hand drill.  But - I went through these holes(with the hand drill) at least three passes with the 1/16 bit and if there were burrs they were nuclear powered.
I did not re-drill any holes - just passed the bit through already established holes again and again. The kit stock pin holes are pre drilled and I did not have any off center through and through passes.
I did elongate the holes in the tenons with a file, fore and aft, but NOT in the pipes....
I never removed the tenons once they were staked in place before drilling. They were staked in place and then, using the stock pre drilled pin holes as a guide were drilled using soft faced clamps to snug the barrel into the stock.  Pin holes in the stock were already drilled in.  All I had to do was follow them through.
I marked the pipes with a file: 1st pipe = 1 file bite, 2ed pipe = 2 file bites, 3rd pipe = 3 file bites.  All file bites face forward. No possibility of mix up.
New problem, this is getting ridiculous, I cannot fully seat the ramrod. It only travels about about 2 inches past the final pipe into the stock. What did I not do, forget to do, that would cause this?  A full 15" of ramrod sticks out beyond the muzzle.  Took off the last pipe and I can not find any obstruction in the stock. I think I need to dismount the pipes and find a way to ream out the ramrod sock hole.  Talk about a learning curve! Never did I imagine that this hole would need to be reamed.

[Kingsburyarms]

Take a look at the last barrel lug - The one closest to the lock, it is sticking into the ramrod hole and the ramrod is butting up against it. (Measure where the pin is to the ramrod end, and you will see). I had to file down the last lug to get it out of the way for the ramrod to go all the way in. Just a 1/32-1/16 or so is all that's needed, but it is IMO, the blocker - How do I know? Happened to my 4 builds.

Jon

[Chowmi]

Take a look at the last barrel lug - The one closest to the lock, it is sticking into the ramrod hole and the ramrod is butting up against it. (Measure where the pin is to the ramrod end, and you will see). I had to file down the last lug to get it out of the way for the ramrod to go all the way in. Just a 1/32-1/16 or so is all that's needed, but it is IMO, the blocker - How do I know? Happened to my 4 builds.

Jon

Same here,
that is your issue, I'd bet a six pack on it.

Norm

[Jim Kibler]

Here are a few thoughts...  The pin stock supplied measures .063".  Depending on your drill bit and how it drills, the fit between the hole and pin could be a slight interference.  After drilling through the metal piece, make sure the pin slips through the hole while out of the stock.  If it doesn't, ream it out a bit with your drill bit until it will pass through.

As to the mamrod, the underlug protruding into the ramrod hole is a likely possibility.  Also, sometimes their is a slightly different alignment between the entry pipe and hole.  This can cause slight interference.  There's an easy solution that should be standard practice on any quality longrifle.  Taper the ramrod a touch.  It won't require much.  Use a file or relatively coarse sandpaper to cut the portion of ramrod that enters the stock to a slightly smaller diameter.  Usually only takes five minutes or so.

[draton2681]

Polekat, I know exactly how you feel because I had the exact same mishap! same thimble, same split etc. I thought I was pulling the thimble tight, but like you, found I was splitting the stock out. What a sick feeling. Glued it up and all ended ok but you can still see where it was cracked. I tapered the pin and all but things were just not lined up right when I drifted the pin in. lesson learned the hard way.

[g2608671@verizon.net]

I want to thank everyone here for their time and suggestions.  I know of no other place where folks will take the time to not only answer but to explain and encourage as well. Very refreshing and unique!  I also contacted Jim Kibler via email and his suggestions were spot on with the ones I got here.  He is so responsive to folks asking questions, and with everything he has going on this is truly remarkable.  So - the problem/s were two-fold: not only did I need to sand down the wood on the ramrod for a few inches but the last underlug needed to be filed down as well.  Bingo!  The rifle is finished and as I mentioned I took several pick of the process, starting with unpacking the box, and although I know how to add pics to email I have never even tried this maneuver on a site like this. As soon as I figure it out I will post them.  If it was not like a convection oven here in SE PA today I would take it to the range and see how she shoots.  But I am going to wait until this weekend when the temps drop into a more reasonable area and will add target pics if i can.
Again - sincerest thanks and I will keep you posted on the pics and range report.   

[PPatch]

"not only did I need to sand down the wood on the ramrod for a few inches..."

Tapering the ramrod is usually part of a build. Glad you got everything worked out and are ready to shoot that iron. Have fun and make confetti out of that bullseye. 

dave

[Kingsburyarms]

Well done!!!! - Glad you got it all figured out - Now - when the heat subsides, we are all looking for holes in paper - You can attach an image to your post real easy - Just look under the text box you type in and click on "Add image to post" and it will popup a window for you to drag your image to... Congratulations on your completed project!!! -

Jon

[jerrywh]

 I admire your attitude. 
After you learn to fix almost anything the mistakes won't bother you as much. When I'm reassembling a gun after finishing I always take a drill bit in a hand held pin vise and run it through the holes before putting the pins back in. I use number drills and if I remember correctly there is a bit that is .063. I use it for drilling the holes. Then I sharpen my pins some on the end so they will slip in the hole in the under lug even if it is slightly misaligned. The only time I ever cracked a stock is once I fitted the tang too tight and it cracked at the end of the tang some. Super glue and a little carving fixed that right up.