Author Topic: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43  (Read 19510 times)

Offline Chowmi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« on: June 05, 2017, 04:33:55 AM »
I'm back at WKU this year for Jack Brook's class, building a Christian's Spring rifle.
I'm copying #43 from RCA (or at least as close as I can get!).

I slightly modified the lockplate on the Davis early colonial lock by eliminating the pointy tail on the lock, and adding an astragal arch to the nose. I didn't quite get the nose right I think.  I cut the arch too far back. I will also modify the cock and fabricate a larger cock screw.  I also filed the bolster down to 1/4 inch to match the width of the original.
Here's the lock inlet:






Today I made a trigger and trigger plate out of stock steel. That was quite fun. Still lots of shaping and bending to do on the trigger to get the right shape, and filing to get the decorative shape behind the trigger.







Tomorrow I will file the trigger plate to a boat type shape and inlet it and the trigger.

Comments welcome,

Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

NMLRA
CLA

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13260
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 01:46:38 PM »
To my eye, I think your astragal arch should have went back a bit farther. Looks like your coming right along.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

thimble rig

  • Guest
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2017, 03:32:25 PM »
That's looking pretty good.What barrel weight is that a d weight?I would like to try making one of those some day.

n stephenson

  • Guest
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2017, 04:43:28 PM »
Nice Work!  Thanks for posting.

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
    • My etsy shop
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2017, 04:46:50 PM »
Well done. The trigger looks great. 

Cory Joe Stewart

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18931
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2017, 05:16:06 PM »
Looking good. That lock is a powerhouse. Pretty robust and has enough meat to modify. What barrel are you using?
Andover, Vermont

Offline flehto

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3335
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2017, 09:23:48 PM »
Nice work. Do you intend to go w/ just a TH...no liner? The pan top is quite high on the side  bbl flat . Might just be the camera angle. The lock location  certainly looks like it belongs......Fred

Offline Chowmi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2017, 03:12:13 AM »
Thanks all for the replies.  I've had a lot of fun so far building it.
The trigger and trigger plate are now in.


Mike, I get what you are saying on the arch. The arch on the original is quite far forward and I just eyeballed it for placement.

Rich and Thimble Rig, the barrel is a .54 cal from Ed Rayl patterned after the barrel on the Griffin Rifle by Christian Oerter.  As such, it likely does not match exactly a B or C weight etc.
Ed does a run of these barrels in the spring prior to class. Don't know for sure, but I expect you could ask him for one.  I bought another one this year for my next project.

Fred, I think it's the camera angle. I aimed for lining the top of the pan on-center to the barrel, but I think in actuality it is just a tiny bit lower (tiny bit).  The original had a gold vent liner (Curtis, on this forum, made a gold liner for his rifle- he did a build along post). I intend to use a chamber's liner. I don't think I will go so far as to do the gold one.

I do like that lock, I think it looks good. The original looks in pictures to have the nose on the lock quite low. I tried to mimick that. As a result, my front lock bolt will have a nice arch cut in the shaft for the ramrod to pass through.

More stock shaping tomorrow,

Criticism welcome,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

NMLRA
CLA

Offline Curtis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2202
  • Missouri
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2017, 04:05:58 AM »
Go for the gold liner, Norm, don't be a chicken!!!   ;D ;D  Seriously, things are looking good.  The trigger plate looks a bit industrially heavy tho', it's pretty thick and will take some deep inletting.  Keep up the good work.

Curtis

Curtis Allinson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline Chowmi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2017, 04:36:40 AM »
The trigger plate looks a bit industrially heavy tho', it's pretty thick and will take some deep inletting.  Keep up the good work.

Curtis

Yup, you're right. I went to Lowe's the other day and could only find the 1/8th thick steel (which was actually less than 1/8ths by about a 32nd).
So, I made it out of that. .....  Then Walt showed up in class today with 1/16th sheet steel from Lowe's. I asked if it was near the 1/8th stock....  "Yup, right next to it".
Oops.

Anyway, I had a nightmare brazing the fold (3 tries, still not sure it's brazed)', and the resultant time on the grinder to clear the mess has thinned it a bit. I also did a poor job bending it to conform to the stock, so inlet it a bit shallow and filed off more thickness to meet the correct profile.
I seem to be learning how to hide mistakes and create extra work.
That trigger plate will be strong though! 

See ya tomorrow,
Norm.
Cheers,
Chowmi

NMLRA
CLA

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13260
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2017, 01:49:54 PM »
You could have soft soldered the trigger plate, I always do.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Chowmi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2017, 03:43:28 AM »
You could have soft soldered the trigger plate, I always do.

Yup, wish I had done that instead.

Got some shaping done today and inlet the trigger guard.  If I can get the bulk of the shaping done tomorrow, then I will fabricate some ramrod pipes on Thursday.

Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

NMLRA
CLA

Offline Ed Wenger

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2450
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2017, 03:48:49 AM »
Looking good, Norm!  I really miss not being at WKU this year.  Have fun and keep up the nice work!


         Ed
Ed Wenger

Offline Chowmi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2017, 03:51:18 AM »
Looking good, Norm!  I really miss not being at WKU this year.  Have fun and keep up the nice work!


         Ed

Thanks Ed,
Sorry you are not here too! 

Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

NMLRA
CLA

Offline Chowmi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2017, 05:31:48 AM »
I did a bunch of stock shaping today. Nearly there.... (I'm slow). 
And built some ramrod pipes and the entry thimble. Now it's time to file the octagon flats and the wedding band on to them.
The RR pipes are graduated in diameter, with the front pipe being the largest at about .420, and the entry thimble at 3/8ths inch. They are also different lengths, with the front pipe being the longest.
Since the fore-end of #43 is lost to history and has been restored, I chose to go with the pipe dimensions from the Griffin rifle. I'll have another look tomorrow and see if the increasing length works architecturally. If not, I can grind them shorter.










Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

NMLRA
CLA

Offline elkhorne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2017, 06:36:44 AM »
Norm,
Do you have a scale plan or drawing for #43 that you are using for dimensions like the pipes or are you all using approximations? Very nice job and interesting rifle. Curtis did a great job on his last year and I'm sure you will do the same. Enjoy seeing your posts. Keep it up.
elkhorne

Offline taco650

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2017, 12:17:39 PM »
Looking good so far!  What caliber is it?

thimble rig

  • Guest
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2017, 03:37:31 PM »
looking good keep up the good work.Im really enjoying watching you progress in youre build.thanks for sharing.

Offline Chowmi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2017, 06:00:59 AM »
Elkorne,
I have a profile traced from the original. It is the profile when viewed from the side. I also have the width dimensions taken at several points.
There is some interpolation, as the original has had the forend replaced (from what I understand) from somewhere near the ramrod entry pipe (if I remember correctly). As a result, the length and diameter of the ramrod pipes is speculative.
I do know the length and placement of the pipes on the Griffin rifle, built by Oerter at Christian's Spring.
 #43 is attributed to Christian's spring, and may be Andreas Albrecht's work, or possibly Christian Oerter's work. I have taken the interpretive license to use the pipe dimensions and placement from Oerter's Griffin rifle as a guide.  The trouble with that interpretation might be that the Griffin rifle is a high-end, highly artistic gun, and #43 is a fairly basic rifle and may not have had some of those artistic frills of the Griffin gun.
 I have not inlet the middle and front RR pies yet, so I will look to see if they look right before installing them.  The pictures I have of #43 might suggest that the ramrod pipes are of uniform length. The photos that show the pipes are the full rifle shots, so measuring is quite imprecise.

Taco,
My barrel is .54 Cal.

P.S.  Full disclosure:  I am not an expert on these rifles. My historical speculation is to be taken as just that.. my best guess.
Cheers,
Chowmi

NMLRA
CLA

Offline elkhorne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2017, 07:25:55 AM »
Norm,
Thanks for the info, you are doing a very nice job. I have been putting together the parts from Jack for several years for the Oerter Griffin rifle  and I love the #43. I may in time change try to use my Oerter rifle and plans to interpret a #43 of my own. Really enjoy your posts and hope after WKU is over, you will continue to post your photos of your progress and comments on your successes and pitfalls. We all learn from guys like you and Curtis. Just don't be like so many of the rest of us that still have rifles from WKU that sit in our shop or gun safe unfinished. Thanks for your sharing.
elkhorne

Offline Chowmi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2017, 02:29:19 AM »
Norm,
Really enjoy your posts and hope after WKU is over, you will continue to post your photos of your progress and comments on your successes and pitfalls. We all learn from guys like you and Curtis. Just don't be like so many of the rest of us that still have rifles from WKU that sit in our shop or gun safe unfinished. Thanks for your sharing.
elkhorne

Elkhorne,
Thanks for the nice words and encouragement. I will certainly post my progress as I continue to work on this gun. I now have it to a point that I can do more work at home on it. I started last year, but did not touch it until arriving at WKU this year. And I am glad I didn't, because I would have made mistakes without the amazing instruction I've had here. just when I think I know the next three steps, I find out I was wrong.... 
if you have the plans for the Oerter  rifle, then you could build #43 as well since the profiles are quite similar (same shop, not exact, but very close and discernible only by the critical eye).  If you have photos, then you could see the difference. 
I built this gun using an order of steps that was not optimal, because I wanted to capitalize on time in class with an instructor.  I will do it more rationally the next time.

At the end of two 9 day classes, this is where I ended up. I am not fast, and that's okay for now. Speed will come with repetition.

Lock, trigger, and trigger plate are in. Trigger guard is mostly in, but I wanted to establish the trigger guard mortise so I could do some shaping (because I wanted to optimize learning).
I did not pin the trigger guard because I knew that I would likely remove wood at the nose of the guard and have to inlet it further.  Again, out of order to maximize learning.






The ramrod entry pipe is now inlet.  I learned a lot forming and inletting it. The optimal way to do it is to form the tail over a shaped mandrel. I did not do this. The next optimal way is to gouge out the correct profile into a piece of hardwood and peen it into that. I did not do this either. Instead, I created a 3/8'ths inch dimple in a piece of plywood and peened the bump-up on the entry pipe thimble over that.  Needless to say, it was rough ( I did feel a bit craftsman-ish about it though....).   I will not do that again. 
I eventually got the finial somewhat close the profile of the stock, and figured I would inlet it, then beat it into shape and then file it to final shape.  That's pretty much what happened in the end. Again, I would recommend creating a mandrel or at least a wood form. Another guy in class created a wood form and punched his entry pipe finial into it and it came out beautiful right away.   Mine, not so much.  Here we go: 





high res image hosting

Lots of filing left to get it right.

Lastly, here are some hand made RR pipes, placed randomly and not inlet.   





Please consider this to be a build along, and criticism is quite welcome. I intend to show the learning process, not expertise.

Cheers,
Norm.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 02:45:00 AM by Chowmi »
Cheers,
Chowmi

NMLRA
CLA

Offline elkhorne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2017, 06:38:24 AM »
Norm,
You are doing a great job. I know what you mean about speed, i.e. I am not fast either and far too much of a perfectionist. I wish you the best and look forward to your future posts. We just need to aim for Curtis's rifle - right!

Offline taco650

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2017, 05:02:25 AM »
Chowmi,

Just keep on going.  I'm enjoying watching the process unfold.  The amount of labor that goes into building one of these rifles boggles my mind!  Who knew something that looked so graceful and... simple could take sooo much work to turn out right?  The really funny thing for me is just before I checked this thread I watched a video where a guy showed how to assemble a complete AR15 lower in less than 10 minutes.  Talk about contrasts!

Keep up the good work and don't get discouraged!

Offline elkhorne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2017, 01:23:28 AM »
Norm,
Have you decided if you are going to do a sliding wooden patchbox or a two piece brass box like in the picture in RCA vol I? Just curious about your thoughts.
elkhorne

Offline Chowmi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2017, 06:41:12 AM »
Norm,
Have you decided if you are going to do a sliding wooden patchbox or a two piece brass box like in the picture in RCA vol I? Just curious about your thoughts.
elkhorne

Elkhorne,
I don't know yet.  I'm somewhat anguishing over that decision.
I might do a wood one, might do the one that is on the rifle.  Or, I'm considering not doing one at all.  All three options seem plausible. 

It will be a while before I have to make that decision.  Additionally, I am planning on building this same rifle again for my next build.  It will be good practice to build another of the same and improve on my mistakes.  If I do that, I could do whatever I didn't do on the first one regarding patchboxes.

Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

NMLRA
CLA