Author Topic: Historical perspective on barrel shape  (Read 3003 times)

saltland

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Historical perspective on barrel shape
« on: February 17, 2018, 04:18:16 PM »
Multiple questions for this post.
1)When and why did octagon shaped barrel come into prominence?
2)Why do some firearms such as early 18th century French Fusils or "Trade" guns use octagon to round?
3)Last question for now.All things being equal is there any difference in ballistic characteristics (for lack of a better term) when one chooses to have a round smoothbore rifled compared to a octagon?
  Thanks,
     Scott

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Historical perspective on barrel shape
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2018, 04:49:11 PM »
Because there are no historical treatises on such subjects, any response to the why question is speculation.

1) octagonal barrels go back to wheellock days

2) guess is style and weight. Take an octagonal barrel and round barrel of same measurements and obviously the octagonal barrel weighs more

3) no difference
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Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Historical perspective on barrel shape
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2018, 05:04:55 PM »
My guess on question # 1 is that since early barrels were forged, it was easier for a blacksmith to forge an octagonal tube than a round one. Even early "Handgonnes" that required a handheld match to set them off, had octagon barrels.
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Historical perspective on barrel shape
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2018, 07:12:13 PM »
Depends on whether you measure across the flats or across the corners.
Dennis
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 07:13:00 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline Marcruger

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Re: Historical perspective on barrel shape
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2018, 07:53:45 PM »
I was taught that "back in the day", octagon barrels were considered more accurate as they were thought to be stiffer.  For the same weight, I am not sure whether that is true or not.  But apparently that was the thinking. 

The era I am referring to is the late 1800's regarding Sharps and Winchester type rifles.  I am guessing that accuracy reputation attributed to octagon barrels was passed down from earlier times. 

I was also informed that the reason for "half octagon" barrels was to allow for a longer barrel and sight radius, while keeping reasonable barrel weight out front.  Similar idea to swamped barrels? 

In modern times we see fluted barrels.....really nothing more than a slightly modified take on a swamped barrel.  Heavy at the breech, heavy at the muzzle, lighter in the middle. 

Just thinking out loud.  Best wishes and God Bless,   Marc

Offline Flint62Smoothie

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Re: Historical perspective on barrel shape
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2018, 12:32:53 AM »
I was also informed that the reason for "half octagon" barrels was to allow for a longer barrel and sight radius, while keeping reasonable barrel weight out front.  Similar idea to swamped barrels? 
From my readings of Schuetzen BP cartridge rifles & shooting, it (1/2-round, 1/2-octagonal) profiles was also done to keep a heavy full diameter breech section. That seems to align w/ what you’ve heard.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Historical perspective on barrel shape
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2018, 02:27:44 AM »
Hi,
Octagon to round barrels were largely copied from the Spanish.  In fact, octagon to round barrels with a wedding band were called "Spanish form" during the 17th and 18th centuries.  The design allowed great breech strength but relative light weight.  It evolved from their heavy muskets during the 16th century.  The heavies had to fire a ball with enough power to penetrate hardened armor breast plates of heavy cavalry.  The Spanish used octagon breeches to handle the force but lightened the barrels considerably by turning them round for most of the length, and I mean turning them round.  They were forged round, the octagon was hammered then filed, and then the rest of the barrel was slimmed by turning on a lathe and cutting the soft iron with firmer chisels and files.  Anyway, the Spanish made the best smooth bored barrels in the world during the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries and most other nations tried to copy their styling.  It really did not have anything to do with sight radius.  I don't know why Germanic makers preferred octagon and swamped octagon barrels over round or Spanish form for their rifles.  They did use them on fowlers but rifles tended to have "squared" (old term for octagon) barrels. Maybe they were concerned about higher breech pressures from rifles and stuck with octagon all the way.  Perhaps the flats made fitting and adjusting front and rear sights easier.  But they mostly made barrels that were quite short so the idea of a long sight radius did not matter very much (except perhaps for some special target guns). With respect to accuracy, the most accurate muzzleloading rifles ever (Whitworth, Gibbs, Rigby, etc) had round barrels.  I don't think the shape of the barrels mattered just its quality. 
Deepcreekdale, no hand gonnes did not have octagon barrels exclusively.  In Europe, gun barrels were called barrels because the earliest iron barrels were made like cooper's barrels.  Staves were welded into a round tube and then iron hoops were added for strength.  The first octagon or square barrels of which we know were cast in bronze or brass and it was not until well into the 15th century that iron octagon barrels without hoops start showing up. Moreover, many of the early cast gonnes were round not octagon.

dave     
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 02:31:14 AM by smart dog »
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saltland

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Re: Historical perspective on barrel shape
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2018, 04:03:17 AM »
 Thanks everybody for the responses ...special thanks to Smart Dog for the history.