Author Topic: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43  (Read 19322 times)

Offline SingleMalt

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2017, 03:17:09 AM »
" I learned a lot forming and inletting it. The optimal way to do it is to form the tail over a shaped mandrel. I did not do this. The next optimal way is to gouge out the correct profile into a piece of hardwood and peen it into that. I did not do this either. Instead, I created a 3/8'ths inch dimple in a piece of plywood and peened the bump-up on the entry pipe thimble over that.  Needless to say, it was rough ( I did feel a bit craftsman-ish about it though....).   I will not do that again." 


I'm a novice at forming ramrod pipes as well.  Several years ago, I made a form from two different sizes of bolts and brazed them together before grinding and filing them to shape.  I also followed Curtis' lead and used a lead block with a hammered in dimple to form the hump.  The ball end of a chasing hammer struck with another hammer forced the brass into the cavity in the lead block.  The flats were filed in.  The brass was .050" thick. 















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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2017, 03:36:18 AM »
Singlemalt,
I really like your idea of brazing a bigger bolt onto the RR forming mandrel. Your results show why a mandrel is such a good idea. 
I'll try that when I get a chance.

Thank you!

Norm
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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2017, 10:39:52 PM »
I have resumed work on my #43 rifle, however, I have realized that I need to step backwards to do it right.


Lacking measurements for the rear entry pipe, I used the measurements from the Oerter Griffin rifle. That was probably a reasonable decision. What went wrong is that when making the rear entry thimble, I failed to account for the loss of length in the pipe when you bump up the brass for the finial.
In other words, if you have a section of brass, but you then peen it up at a 60 degree angle and then bend the rest straight, the overall length will be shorter due to the bit that goes upwards. Oops.

The end result is that I have a nice finial, with a ridiculously short ramrod pipe. looks a bit like Wee Willy Wonka if you get my drift... big rifle, small pipe..... 

So it will be time to make a new rear entry thimble and inlet it back into an already inlet space. Fun fun. But I am determined to make this one as right as I can, and this is the right thing to do.

I'll let you know how it goes.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2017, 11:04:38 PM »
I assume the straight portion is the same length as the upstream pipes?
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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2017, 11:17:29 PM »
I assume the straight portion is the same length as the upstream pipes?

Oh no! You've just opened the Pandora's box of my tiny brain!! 

I have the next two pipes formed and have been wrestling with whether to make them equal length or not. Don't know the answer.

Short answer: I don't know for sure.  I think the upper two are ever so slightly longer than the entry pipe. That is based on my using calipers to compare against a picture printed on 8.5 by 11 paper. I.e., not very precise.

I know that the Griffin Rifle has pipes that increase in length fromentry pipe to muzzle end.
Is this a good reason to do the same?  Maybe not. Griffin Rifle is high end. #43 probably not. Same shop, but probably different gunsmith.

If I had the rifle in hand, easy. But I have to make decisions.
Either way, the one I made is stupid short and looks ridiculous.
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Offline Curtis

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2017, 04:36:40 AM »
Norm,

I calculated my entry pipe length by using calipers on a photo, then comparing the measurement to a known dimension on the stock in the same photo.  Not very scientific but better than a raw guess.  I graduated the pipes on my version of the rifle, but that was based on preference and not any hard facts. 

If you fit a new pipe in the old inlet that will hone your skills for restoration work in the future!!  ;)

I will send you and email with some information that you can sift through and come up with your own conclusions.

Curtis
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 04:42:07 AM by Curtis »
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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2017, 05:48:42 AM »
Thanks Curtis, that will be helpful.
Making a new entry pipe will actually solve two other issues for me anyway.

I think the finial on my first one doesn't flare out enough towards the rear. If I flare the new one a little more, then I don't have to be exact to fit the pre-existing inlet.

I never got the finial on the old one to be nice and straight when looking at it from the side either. I have filed most of that problem away, but it still isn't that good and doesn't fit real solidly in the inlet, even when pinned. I was in a hurry that last day or so in class.

So I think a new one done correctly is in order. Otherwise it will drive me nuts.

I also plan to graduate the length of the pipes from back to front. Hadn't quite figure out how much to graduate them though. They are also bigger in diameter as they go. I've made the pipe blanks but have not filed the flats yet, so I still have room to figure it out.

Norm
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 05:55:20 AM by Chowmi »
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Offline hanshi

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2017, 06:27:27 PM »
#43 is a very fine rifle, IMHO.  It was one of my favorites.  Gotta admit, though, it would be a tough decision deciding between #43 and a nice Germanic jaeger.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2017, 02:42:48 AM »
#43 is a very fine rifle, IMHO.  It was one of my favorites.  Gotta admit, though, it would be a tough decision deciding between #43 and a nice Germanic jaeger.

I really like it too.  Every time I look at the pictures of the original, it draws me in.  The more I look at these earlier guns with wider buttplates and thicker butt-stocks etc,  the more I love everything about them.

I know this is heresy, but the Jaegers just don't draw me in.  There, I said it.  In public. 

They should draw me in because they are elegant and beautiful, with exceptional craftsmanship.  Someday, I'm sure I will build one and my mind will change!

Cheers,
Norm
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Offline hanshi

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2017, 08:06:40 PM »
#43 is a very fine rifle, IMHO.  It was one of my favorites.  Gotta admit, though, it would be a tough decision deciding between #43 and a nice Germanic jaeger.

I really like it too.  Every time I look at the pictures of the original, it draws me in.  The more I look at these earlier guns with wider buttplates and thicker butt-stocks etc,  the more I love everything about them.

I know this is heresy, but the Jaegers just don't draw me in.  There, I said it.  In public. 

They should draw me in because they are elegant and beautiful, with exceptional craftsmanship.  Someday, I'm sure I will build one and my mind will change!

Cheers,
Norm



Not "heresy", Chowmi, just honest preferences. 
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Chowmi

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2017, 08:17:34 PM »
Thanks, Hanshi. 

I was thinking about this post this morning and realized there was no good reason to be negative.  I was not rebuking your preference.  Sometimes I think I need to learn when to shut up!

I have decided to re-do the RR entry thimble, and will make a form for punching out the tail of the thimble. 
To clarify, or answer some questions about the size of the forward two pipes:

I will graduate the length and the diameter of the front two pipes.  It's my understanding that #43 was (or likely was) restored at some point forward of the rear entry pipe. 
That leaves the placement and/or size of the rr pipes on the original somewhat in question.  I do not know if the ones on there now are replacements or not.  In any event, there is historical evidence for the pipes from the Christian's Spring shop to be graduated in size in this fashion on some rifles.  I have chosen to use that as a model. 
I have also received some more information about the entry pipe, and will do my best with it.  I suspect I have made the tail of my first one too long, which I cannot fix since that would leave a gap in the inlet when I make the new one.  I will look at it further when I have the time to do so. 

I've been out of the house for some time and have lots of honey do's to catch up on. 

Thanks to all that have provided feedback and information!

Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2017, 01:36:36 AM »
I haven't posted much progress on this rifle lately.  It's been slow going, just too busy with life!

I have the basic assembly and initial shaping pretty much done.  There are lots of little bits that need work, especially refining the shape.

I did some initial filing on the lock plate, got the trigger guard inlet, inlet all the ramrod pipes, made a two piece nose-cap, and made and inlet the side plate. 

I did a lot of shaping in the butt stock area, and initial shaping around the lock panels and trigger guard.  Fore-end is slimmed down close to final shape, and the bump above the rear entry pipe is started, but needs work. 

Here's an overall picture:




Side plate:

I made this out of 1/8" sheet brass.  I scaled it up from pictures from RCA by measuring the distance between the lock bolts on my rifle, and then scaling the picture in RCA to match that size. 









Here's the RR entry pipe and the transition from lower fore arm to upper fore arm.  Still working on the wood transition there.  It looks a bit square to me now, and will work on it.



The muzzle cap on RCA #43 is likely a replacement, as the fore end past the entry pipe is a restoration (AFIK).  I made this one as a two piece out of .040 brass.  I relieved the wood at the muzzle to about the depth of .040, and formed the cap around that.  Silver soldered the front on and filed it to match the flats on the barrel, or thereabouts.  I believe the original had a screw through the cap into the barrel.  I did not want to do this, because I wanted the wood to be allowed to expand and contract over time without it being anchored into the barrel (same reason you expand the hole in barrel underdogs for the pin).  I cut a square of steel stock and drilled and tapped for my muzzle cap screw, and inlet that into the barrel channel.  So, the muzzle cap screw goes into the square "nut" inlet into the stock, not the barrel. 
This was my first home made muzzle cap, and it seemed to turn out alright.  I was pleased that all the components lined up and I have at least a decent fit of the muzzle cap. 
Note that I have not yet addressed the wood transition from the ramrod channel to the muzzle cap.



Cheek side of the butt stock. 



Home made RR pipe.



Here is the trigger guard from the bottom.  You can see a bit at the rear finial where I had to peen it a bit.  I screwed up the inletting and there was a gap between the back end and the wood.  I peened the back end to extend it more towards the wood.  I have not done any smoothing on it.  I also have not done the decorative incised lines and grooves on the front of the guard.






 



Here is the front of the muzzle cap.  if you look close, it looks like the left (bottom in picture) side is a bit wider than the other side.  That is how it turned out, probably from removing and replacing it several times before I soldered the front on. That side sits a bit proud of the wood (the wood is symmetric, I think).  I will file the cap down to match the wood and it should look ok.


Entry pipe.  I ended up not re-making the entry pipe.  I might decide to change that.  I have not finished shaping this area. 
This spot always gives me trouble, and I will slowly try to refine it. 



Comments and critiques are welcome,
Cheers,
Norm
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 08:01:40 AM by Chowmi »
Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline Curtis

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2017, 07:58:01 AM »
Looking pretty good overall Norm, and your "Voll Schlange" looks properly sized!  In one photo the cheek piece looks kinda short but the whole photo looks a bit shortened so that could be an optical illusion.  One other thing - your transition behind the muzzle cap looks a bit abrupt, should be some space (perhaps a half inch to three quarters) between the cap and where the fore-stock goes to full depth, i.e. where the molding begins.

Nice work!
Curtis

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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2017, 08:09:15 AM »
Looking pretty good overall Norm, and your "Voll Schlange" looks properly sized!  In one photo the cheek piece looks kinda short but the whole photo looks a bit shortened so that could be an optical illusion.  One other thing - your transition behind the muzzle cap looks a bit abrupt, should be some space (perhaps a half inch to three quarters) between the cap and where the fore-stock goes to full depth, i.e. where the molding begins.

Nice work!
Curtis

Thanks Curtis,
I was editing the post as you responded.  The transition to the nose cap has not been shaped at all yet.  I merely cut that back far enough to get the cap in.  In other words, you are exactly right, I just hadn't got to it yet!

Thanks for the feedback on the Voll Schlange, now I just need to get it symmetric....  Always a bugger for me. 

I'll have a look at the cheek piece.  As I shaped it, I thought it visually looked short.  I took the dividers to my pictures of #43 and did my best to proportion it out and ended up with what I have.  Not sure it's right, but it was my best effort using expanded measurements from the pictures.  I also looked at my notes from class two years ago when you and I were talking about the cheekpiece and using dividers to guess.  I had asked you what you came up with.  You had calculated maybe 1/8" or 1/4" more than I had, so at least I am consistent!!
I'll have a look at it again, although I don't think I can add wood to it now..

Cheers,
Norm
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Chowmi

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Offline Curtis

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2017, 10:03:05 AM »
Norm, don't worry too much about making the Voll Schlange symmetric, just make it look good at arms length!   Trust your eyeballs.  And the cheek looked okay in other pics' just looked funky in that one.... so maybe nothing.  Carry on!!

Curtis
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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2017, 08:14:36 PM »
Norm, Looks like you are coming along nicely. I didn't see anything that looked wacked. Keep us posted Nate

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2017, 12:14:21 AM »
What does "voll schlange" mean? Haven't run across that one before.
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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2017, 12:19:12 AM »
What does "voll schlange" mean? Haven't run across that one before.

It's the little "bump" on either side of the fore stock, just above the rear entry pipe. 

Voll Schlange means "full snake" in German, the  way a snake would look if it ate a tennis ball.

Norm
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Offline Elnathan

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2017, 04:26:44 PM »
What does "voll schlange" mean? Haven't run across that one before.

It's the little "bump" on either side of the fore stock, just above the rear entry pipe. 

Voll Schlange means "full snake" in German, the  way a snake would look if it ate a tennis ball.

Norm

Aha. I immediately thought of this when I read your explanation: http://www.quintatinta.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Gary-Larson-2.jpg

A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Curtis

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2017, 07:06:48 PM »
Elnathan, That nails it, I couldn't think of a better visual than that!!!!

Curtis
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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2018, 09:28:31 AM »
Finally had a few more hours to work on the rifle in the past few days. 

I've got most of the lock parts filed and sanded to about 150 or 220 grit, and then it was time to tackle something I was afraid to do.  Initial results are promising. 

The lock plate and part of the cock on the original #43 rifle have an indented moulding around most of each part (my words don't describe it, pictures will...).  Curtis documented his process for doing this in his #43 build-along.  I took a slightly different approach and thought I would post my process and results (prior to final filing and polishing) for information and critique. 

Attempting to recreate this sort of bevel along the edge of the lock plate:



I used a flat graver made from a Lindsay graver sharpening template, and a medium coarse curved triangular riffler file to do the work.  My engraving skills are not great, and this will show in the pictures.  So be it. I'll practice more!

Here's the tools I used:

I found that it was critical to sharpen the graver often. 






I first used a black sharpie to define the outer edge of the bevel.  Realize that the lock plate is cast with a bevel towards the face, and I also filed a bevel on the rear portion for inletting.  So the line I needed to follow was the apex between these two bevels.  Here is an example of the sharpie line:




I then took the graver and tried to cut the face of the bevel, maintaining the angle of the bevel and staying outside of my sharpie marks.  It worked, but was a bit sloppy and I think I've worked out a better technique.  Here's a picture after a few passes with the graver:




You can see that I was not terribly precise in my cutting depth, but it did establish an indented line.  To me, that was the key.  If I established a good indented line, then the next passes with the graver would have bounds (or a fence, if you will, against which to work).  It also established a line that would help to guide a file later on. 

Here is the new bevel on the bottom of the lock plate, after initial filing with my curved three corner file.  Because the lock plate is slightly banana shaped at the bottom, a straight file would not work.








Next, I did the top side of the front of the lock.  Now, I'm not sure if I should have done that part or not after looking at some photos I have.  Possibly oops, but it's done now, so chalk it up to lack of attention to detail. 
In any event, I tried a slightly different technique on this part.  The results were promising, although they will look a bit rough because I have not had the time to file them as I did the other parts. 

Instead of attempting to cut a deeper bevel all at once, I thought I would try simply cutting straight down to establish the indent, or "fence" as I called it above.  Picture to explain:



I did that first to establish about the right depth, and then cut the remaining bevel back to smooth it out.  It seemed that this method might be the way to go.  Unfortunately, I don't have a good picture of the end result (terrible focus on the one I have.  Will post later). 

My engraving skills are not great, so I concentrated first and foremost on establishing a straight line for the indent, figuring that files could clean up a lot of errors.  I'm sure that someone with better skills could remove 90% of the metal with a graver and then clean it up with a file.  I probably removed 70-80% of the metal with the graver, and then filed the rest, and still have cleanup to do on it. 

The biggest thing I learned here was:  be brave, try it!

Cheers,
Norm
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Chowmi

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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2018, 03:01:53 PM »
Norm, nice work and brave indeed.  I took some of the curvature out of a Chambers Germanic lock once by filing off part of the lower edge of the lockplate and had to fix a short section of the bevel.  I used a grave and finished with a riffler file.  Strong work on your part and thanks for the pictures. 
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Offline Curtis

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2018, 06:50:15 PM »
Glad to see you went ahead and did the bevel on the lock, that really sets it off IMHO and the fact you were brave enough to try it puts you at the leading edge of the heard!!

Looks great.

Curtis
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2018, 07:20:54 PM »
Norm, if you get a chance to do some blacksmithing try making you trigger plate at the forge. It’s pretty easy to fold the end of the plate blank over and forge weld it. A blunt punch can be made from an old chisel, that has been ground to the shape of the trigger slot. When the trigger plate is still hot from the welding, simple take your newly made punch, and punch the trigger slot.
 This is a great build. I can’t wait to see the finished gun.
 By the way, that whole perfection thing is a myth. It drove me crazy on my first couple of builds. And I scrapped a couple of stocks that could have been saved. When I got a couple of original guns, I found out the old timers made mistake too, but they taught themselves to work around most of them.
 Good Luck.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Chowmi

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Re: Christian's Spring rifle build, inspired by RCA #43
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2018, 07:38:07 PM »
Norm, if you get a chance to do some blacksmithing try making you trigger plate at the forge. It’s pretty easy to fold the end of the plate blank over and forge weld it. A blunt punch can be made from an old chisel, that has been ground to the shape of the trigger slot. When the trigger plate is still hot from the welding, simple take your newly made punch, and punch the trigger slot.
 This is a great build. I can’t wait to see the finished gun.
 By the way, that whole perfection thing is a myth. It drove me crazy on my first couple of builds. And I scrapped a couple of stocks that could have been saved. When I got a couple of original guns, I found out the old timers made mistake too, but they taught themselves to work around most of them.
 Good Luck.

  Hungry Horse

HH,
Learning some blacksmithing skills is on my list.  I've been dreaming of doing it for a year now. 
There is an old blacksmith shop about 8 miles from me.  It was built in about 1900, and has recently resumed business as a full time smith shop.  The inside is amazing, like stepping straight back 100 years. 
The owner would like to give lessons, but is not allowed because he doesn't have a public toilet....  Rats!  He did say that he was considering allowing folks to rent time in the forge once they had a safe skill level.  I don't know if that will work out or not.  Regardless, he gave me contact details for a guy who will give lessons.  I just need to get off my butt and do it.  And buy an anvil, and hammers and tongs, and a forge....

Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

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