Author Topic: Iron Mounted Flint Rifle (Read 6834 times)

Dennis Glazener · « **on:** June 21, 2017, 08:43:46 PM »

I would like to know what area of the country the rifle below might have been made. Also would like an approximate time period. Also if anyone see's traits that might tie it to a particular maker or school. The prior owner owned the rifle since the late 1960's early 1970's. I have an pretty good idea of the area he got the rifle but I don't want to reveal that since it might influence thoughts of where it originally was made.

The rifle appears to be all original and is stocked in American walnut. The hardware is iron. Everything functions properly and appears to be safe to shoot.

The patch box appears to be one piece (except for lid). The release is activated via pressing the midsection of the toe plate. Patch box is 6.50 inches in length and is 2.312 inches wide in the rear.

The flintlock appears to be original to the rifle and is marked “W & JR Payson Philadelphia” It is an English style with a roller tipped frizzen spring. It is fastened in place using 2 lock bolts.

Butt plate is 4.572 inches tall, fastened with 2 screw and is 1.682 inches wide. The extension measures 2.920 inches in length.
The inside toe of the butt plate has what appears to be the initials "J W" cut into it:

Bore is approximately .47 caliber.
Barrel length is 41” and is a straight taper, there is no evidence it has been cut.
Barrel measures .930 at breech, .800 mid-way and .743 at the muzzle.

Tang is 2” long and is flared, with a small “finger-nail” on the back

Drop at heel is 2 7/8 inches. Length of pull is 13.5 inches.

The entry pipe is 27.5” (measured to the center) from the muzzle and is double pinned. The end has a slight bell shape to the forward end. It is 2.365 inches long.

The middle pipe is 16” from the muzzle and has a single pin. The two ends have a slight bell shape. This pipe is 1.445 inches long.

The forward pipe is 5” from the muzzle and is double pinned. The two ends have a slight bell shape. This pipe is 1.534 inches long.

The nose cap is one piece iron and is 1.870 inches long. It is held on with 2 copper pins that are peened on each side, plus 1 through the bottom rr groove, total of 5 copper pins. The ram rod groove is extended through the bottom of the nose cap.

The front sight is a brass barley corn style and center is located 2” from the muzzle.

The rear sight is very low profile and its center is 31.25 inches from the muzzle.

The single trigger is .25 inches wide in the center and comes to a blunt point at the bottom.

The plain iron guard is 9.50 inches long and appears to be a casting (possibly from a musket?) the front and rear extensions are .550 inches wide. The trigger bow is .991 inches wide at the bottom of the bow.

above photo by Mark Elliott Photography

Original ram rod and hand forged tip

wildcatter · « **Reply #1 on:** June 21, 2017, 10:49:21 PM »

Dennis,

I have always admired this one! I offer up Rockbridge/Botetourt/Page Counties VA area. I think the robust wrist and military style patch box may point in that direction. I know that area saw a lot of militia muster and the military style guard and rail with single trigger could support that. I think the southern valley area didn't have as much available scrap brass for castings as the northern valley did and I think iron may have been more readily available which could explain why its iron mounted. I also think the broader butt of this rifle aligns itself with southern valley counties. I don't know if the patch box opening mechanism is a character trait of that area or not, but I will offer up the name John Walker as a possible connection to the initials on the butt plate. Good Luck finding out who and when it was made. It certainly is one of my favorites!!

Matt

Seth Isaacson · « **Reply #2 on:** June 22, 2017, 01:04:44 AM »

Virginia was my first "feeling" about the rifle. Check page 90 of West Virginia Gunsmiths by Lambert and Whisker. They have similar rifle with essentially identical patch box listed as a "Sheetz Militia Rifle, Hampshire County, probably made by Zebulon Sheetz." I was just flipping through the book the other day for another rifle from the region and vaguely remembered taking note of this no-nonsense patch box style. It has a maple stock, double set triggers, and a silver star cheek piece inlay.

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #3 on:** June 22, 2017, 01:35:57 AM »

What makes you think the guard is a casting? Do you see evidence anywhere of casting flash or other evidence? Has it been removed?

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #4 on:** June 22, 2017, 02:57:52 AM »

Eric
Good question, I just assumed it was a casting. No I have not removed it, may try tomorrow, you have made me curious.
Dennis

Molly · « **Reply #5 on:** June 22, 2017, 05:03:34 AM »

"Valley of Virginia", north of the James....but then J.W. might be John Wilson, Craig's Creek ....Botetourt, Craig or Allegheny Counties. And I seem to recall seeing a Wilson family rifle sell out west with a sort of similar box. Oh yes, Then there is a similar box on a rifle made by Philip Sheets - Sheperdstown, Berkeley county VA (WV)

But what do know! Get the experts opinions and should it actually be linked to Botetourt put a price on it and send me a PM.

Not like any Botetourt works I know of.

WElliott · « **Reply #6 on:** June 22, 2017, 05:51:22 AM »

That strikes me as an early Valley rifle. Very appealing, Dennis!
(Are you going to tell us it turned up in Georgia?).

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #7 on:** June 22, 2017, 06:22:22 PM »

If you have an opportunity to remove the guard I think it would be very interesting to see what you find. I know - speaking only for myself - I've never seen a piece with *cast* iron/steel furnishings that predated the early 1830s. The earliest I've ever seen with definitively cast steel furnishings was an Irish fowler with a thumb piece w/ an early 1830s date on it, signed by "Murphy." I suspect that this guard here is a recycled and re-shaped martial piece, and unless a restoration, a forged piece. Very cool rifle. That is one serious wrist!

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #8 on:** June 22, 2017, 06:55:26 PM »

Eric,
Good information and curiosity got the best of me and I just removed the guard. It is pinned in the front, pin hidden by the lock and sideplate (which is extremely thin metal BTW). The bottom of the guard is concave and it does appear to have been forged but very well done. I am curious if the "stake" that the pin goes through was soldered on or? If soldered there is no evidence of solder around the base of the "stake", all uniform rust.

Interesting what you see when you take an antique gun apart! I just saw that the nose cap is held in place with a total of 5 what appear to be copper pins. 2 through each side and 1 through the bottom rr groove, I have never seen this before!

Here are photo's.

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #9 on:** June 22, 2017, 08:10:52 PM »

While I had the trigger guard off I took a snapshot of the trigger plate, shown below.
Dennis

image hosting

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #10 on:** June 22, 2017, 08:39:12 PM »

I have been doing some research on John Walker, (Thanks Matt aka Wildcatter) and found some good information on several John Walker's, one source begins on page 142 of the book "Rockbridge County Artists and Artisans by Barbara Crawford/Royster Lyle Jr. So far it looks like there may have been as many of 4 men from Rockbridge county that had that name. At least 3 of them were associated with gun making as gun maker, gun stocker or barrel maker. One died in 1794 and another was still active in 1796 The one that was still active in 1796 has a ledger book that is owned by the Wisconsin Historical Society. He was a gunsmith and in the ledger book there are entry's for gun barrels, gun barrels not filed and in 1795 there is an entry for a Bowplate Iron (trigger bow?) also entries for other iron products.

The Rockbridge Walkers were also associated with John Davidson in some capacity. They are shown as being located in the Timber Ridge area of Rockbridge County VA

Very interesting since the man that I got this rifle from purchased it from a man that lived west of Salem/Roanoke VA. Gary Brumfield told me that the round head wood screws used on the patch box/toe plate were fairly common in that area of VA.

Dennis

realtorone · « **Reply #11 on:** June 23, 2017, 02:37:58 AM »

Dennis
Very nice looking rifle The lines and workmanship appear to be super. glad for you George

wormey · « **Reply #12 on:** June 23, 2017, 03:44:17 AM »

Dennis, take a look at rifle #194 on page 260 of Bill Ivey`s book on North Carolina longriles. There are differences in the lock moulding, but the wrist looks very, very similar to yours. The overall shape is also very similar. Wormey

James Rogers · « **Reply #13 on:** June 23, 2017, 05:05:26 AM »

Not usually a follower of the later guns but this one has my attention!

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #14 on:** June 25, 2017, 11:11:29 PM »

Quote from: wormey on June 23, 2017, 03:44:17 AM

Dennis, take a look at rifle #194 on page 260 of Bill Ivey`s book on North Carolina longriles. There are differences in the lock moulding, but the wrist looks very, very similar to yours. The overall shape is also very similar. Wormey

Wormey,
I just got around to looking at the rifle in Bill's book and it does look similiar but I don't think mine is by the same hand. The more I dig the more I believe this is a VA Valley gun made somewhere between Staunton and Roanoke/Salem VA. I believe it may have been made by a maker that possibly worked for/with someone that had a government contract building miltary/milita arms. There was one in Augusta County during the Rev War and Shetz had one that area. I was told Shetz's shop operated until around 1830. I feel sure many of the area gun makers worked at these locations and one of them could very easily made this rifle after they left one of the military contract shops.

The JW inside the buttplate MIGHT have been made by one of at least 4 John Walker's that lived in what today is Rockbridge County. Wish I knew more about who worked where during the years after the Rev War.
Dennis

gibster · « **Reply #15 on:** June 26, 2017, 02:20:29 AM »

Dennis, There is a picture of a rifle on Aspen Shade's web site that has a box very similar to yours. The architecture is different, but the box is a close match. It is under their sold items towards the bottom of the page.

Carper · « **Reply #16 on:** June 26, 2017, 10:14:06 AM »

Great looking rifle. The Carpers had a shop in the Fincastle area until they moved westward in 1850. That heavy wrist with no noticeable rear lock molding was common on the rifles they made in the same area you think your gun came from. I actually like the look of the rifle tapering towards the butt. BTW they kept that heavy wrist even until almost 1890 so they must have liked it too or more importantly their customers must have liked it ! Again great looking rifle. Johnny Walker

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #17 on:** June 26, 2017, 11:36:27 AM »

Johnny,
Good to hear from you. I thought about your Carper family. Did they ever do any military contract work that you are aware of? I would think many of the area gunmakers probably worked in the Shetz shop or possibly furnished parts for his military contracts.
Dennis

Carper · « **Reply #18 on:** July 01, 2017, 08:59:14 AM »

The Carper's came to America as blacksmiths and married into the Beck family. I surmise that began their gun making. About 1800 they were in Boutetort Co. around Fincasle. To my knowledge they never did any contract work. Although Federal cavalry burned the gun and blacksmith shop in Civil War I'll bet it they were more concerned about their horseshoeing than the squirrel rifles they built. You sure have a great rifle there.

bgf · « **Reply #19 on:** July 06, 2017, 01:04:44 AM »

Dennis,
I think I've seen this one before, but after Carpers comment, I noticed the wrist and buttstock are as close as possible to a stepped wrist profile, almost as if the guard was a special request and the shaping modified to accommodate it. The patchbox, toe plate and other stuff are consistent with that. High quality, not hacked together.

I wouldn't rule out any JW's (if any) as far north as at least Rockingham county, as I'm thinking it is earler rather than later.

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #20 on:** July 07, 2017, 02:20:28 AM »

Yes I agree about the JW's all through that area of VA. Another I had not thought of that is mentioned in the Rockbridge County book was John Whiteside.

Yes I do see the resemblance to a stepped wrist rifle.
Dennis

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2017, 04:50:54 AM »

For the Rockbridge attribution, I would like to point out that John Davidson uses a patchbox release mechanism similar to this rifle. That is; a flexing toe plate. I would note that I have tried that type of release mechanism and found it less reliable than I would like.

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Author Topic: Iron Mounted Flint Rifle (Read 6834 times)

realtorone