English Sporting Rifles - at the range

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Daryl and I went to our gun club this morning to fire the Joseph Lang rifle (posted in Antique Forum) and have some fun.  Daryl brought his Taylor Made .69 cal rifle...he's not the kind who can just watch.  With my Lang rifle I chose to start with three drams of GOEX 2Fg (82 gr.) and the .650" ball cast in my new Jeff Tanner mould.  At 40 yds, where the first target stand happened to be this morning, my rifle produced a ragged one hole group.  I found I had to tap the rear sight just a tad left to centre the group, and it shot some three and a half inches high using the 100 yd. sight at this close range.
At 100 m. (109 yds) and with the same sight picture and sight, the rifle shot about four inches low, so I held, as best I could, a little of the front blade and bead above the bottom of the notch and fired a five shot group.  I had increased the charge to 85 gr. just so it'd be easier to reset later.  I must say, I am not disappointed with the rifle's accuracy, with this first outing.  I found my patches were a little thin and had cut marks from the lands, so I had switched to some of Daryl's patches, lubed with a blue wet stuff.
Meanwhile, Daryl shot his five shot group as well.  The results are posted below...comments are welcome, as if I could prevent it!





I ended up buying lunch!

[Joe S.]

Getting her dialed in is half the fun,should have made a deal, you can shoot the English rifle but then your buying lunch

[Daryl]

It was fun.  I'll note here, Taylor hit the 230 yard steel plate several times with his new rifle. I only came close - even with the last shot of the day, a 30gr. Squib-cleaning load. LOL. Took about 4 seconds to get there, rifle pointed well above the 30' high berm.

Here's Taylor shooting the Lang.












I now see I need to hire someone to do some checkering for me.
Anyone any ideas?

[Daryl]

Getting her dialed in is half the fun,should have made a deal, you can shoot the English rifle but then your buying lunch

Joe S - I was shooting an English gun. But - it was made by a Scot.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Thanks for the pics Daryl.

[Gary/CO]

Glen Morovits for checkering.  He was on the accrediting committee that said yay or nay for membership in the Custom Gunmakers' Guild.  He's now a teacher at Trinidad State Jr. College Gunsmithing School.   If not him, then my classmate, Lew Throne.  You can find Lew on Facebook.  Lew just got some carbide cutters to replace the steel ones.

[Daryl]

TKs Gary - I was trying to make a funny, there. Taylor does extremely good checkering, especially the Original English (or Hawken) Variety.

[smylee grouch]

So how was the recoil with those loads tested with the Lang shooting off the bench? I assume not too bad considering the stock profile of the rifle.

[Daryl]

Taylor's Lang about normal light to me, but I hold the butt in the pocket of my pectoral muscle & shoulder. Taylor had it out on the point of his shoulder and felt some discomfort.   

I fired a few normal 165gr. hunting loads in mine and it was heavy fine. My rifle feels about 1 pound heavier than the Lang, though & that makes a difference.   My rifle weighs 9 1/2 pounds.

[smylee grouch]

Shooting a big bore off the bench can shake you up somewhat. I have a stand up bench out at my hunting shack and shooting off that is much more manageable than shooting in the sit down lean into it position for me. IMHO the British knew how to make a heavy hitter more comfortable to shoot than the plains rifle makers. Stock profile and shotgun style butt helps me alot.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I'm not a good bench rest shooter.  Daryl has so much more experience at it than I do.  I ended up with a nice plum coloured and sized bruise on my shoulder, but at the time of shooting the Lang, I didn't pay any attention to it.  Offhand, the rifle is very pleasant to shoot.  We settled right off the bat with three drams of 2Fg since the rifle has a 1:48" twist.  The swamped barrel moves the weight (8.14 pounds) back to the shooter, whereas Daryl's rifle has a parallel 1 1/8" bbl and feels noticeably more muzzle heavy.  And that is better for offhand target shooting.  The Joesph Lang will be a remarkable hunting rifle, and that is what it was designed for.  It was I who suggested that Daryl's rifle could use some chequering!

[Daryl]

Shooting a big bore off the bench can shake you up somewhat. I have a stand up bench out at my hunting shack and shooting off that is much more manageable than shooting in the sit down lean into it position for me. IMHO the British knew how to make a heavy hitter more comfortable to shoot than the plains rifle makers. Stock profile and shotgun style butt helps me alot.

The 'standing' benches were designed for shooting and regulating the barrels double rifles.  It was so much closer to actually standing and shooting, that all double rifle makers used the method. W.W. Greener's "The Gun and it's Development 9th Edition", shows and explains this quite well.  If standing and holding the gun in both hands as if shooting offhand, but resting the barrel (not the forend) IN the holding hand, the shot is steadied (better accuracy), however the effect on regulation is almost the duplicate of shooting unsupported. Too, the general large calibre double gun recoil is well absorbed, as best it can be by the body moving and absorbing it.

Greener broke his recoil machine shooting a 4 bore SXS. The machine was only good up to 200pounds of recoil.  The recoil shooting the lighter 12 dram load broke the machine.  A full charge in the 4 bore, was 16 drams, with a round ball weighing 1/4 pound, 1,750gr.  12 drams is 327gr., while the full charge was 437gr. , a full ounce of powder (16 drams to the ounce, 16 ounces to the pound).  Either load would be a brute off the bench, wouldn't they.

[smylee grouch]

Four bore would put me in a coma! Dennis McCandless was showing me a four bore ball along side of my 58 and it dwarfed it. But four bore is six times bigger than a 58 and I always considered a 58 close to the end of my tolerance level. I shoot a 62 now but the stock design helps alot in recoil management.

[heelerau]

Daryl, no surprise that it shot so well,  my new mould arrived today, will cast up some ball and see how they might fit.  Will you take your rifle hunting?

Cheers

Gordon

[Daryl]

I've killed a couple moose with it, Gordon.  It really staggers them.  Taylor's rifle will be less dramatic on moose, but will work just fine.
Good luck with the new ball.

[heelerau]

Daryl, I did wonder if you would try it on moose, the best I might have a go at with size would be Buffalo up in the Northern Territory, other than that pipe dream it will be pig or kangaroo.   

Cheers and thanks

Gordon

[Daryl]

Yes - a Water Buffalo with a single shot 14 bore - YES - that would be fun - however, some scrub bulls might also be fine - a red one perhaps, with tightly hooked, heavy horns.

I think a Sambar would also fit the bill, along with a Red Deer Stag.

[heelerau]

I got a package from TOW  yesterday, lots of goodies, among them a .710 ball mould,  I cast up some balls today, nice finish, had to watch for shrinkage down the sprue, I have noticed that seems to be a problem with these type of moulds in the larger calibers, I just keep dripping lead when I see the sprue start to contract.  I digress , I also got some .015 patch material, I might have to try two patches till I find something heavy enough. Will give it a try when I get back from work in a couple of weeks. I may still get a mould from that English outfit someone here  recommended if needs be. 
    I have a feeling these rifles may have only been for thin skinned game like moose, elk, eland, deer,  tiger and the like.  Brave men those Victorian Nimrods !!

Cheers

Gordon
     

[Daryl]

Gordon- I picked up some light canvas at the sewing store a while back - very nice and measures .022" compressed in the calipers as tightly as I can.  Scrunched down hard as possible with my mic, it still measures .019"/.020".  It is a hard, close weave and does not compress easily. I am hoping it will shoot with pure lead balls of .682" or .690", in my .69 rifle.

[heelerau]

Gents, still working on my English hunting rifle, shot it yesterday using a card and heartfelt greased wad with a thick denim patch and 4 1/2 drams of Fg. POA= POI now, just have to adjust the rear sight a tad.  Not grouping as well as Taylors rifle yet but still on the improve. P1020775 by Gordon Hazel, on Flickr

[Daryl]

You are getting there, Gordon. Keep working on the load. I'd try only a greased patch next - might have to go a bit thicker.

100% pure Neetsfoot Oil or Track's Mink Oil. Both worked for me in the .69.  For plinking and range shooting, I use the water

based WWWF+a bit of Neestfoot Oil, but only greased or oiled patches for hunting.  You may find the greased patch actually

brings your POI up that few inches where it needs to be. Also, it may take a bit more powder, maybe not.

My 14 bored always shot to the same poi with oil/grease and water based lubes.  I have not tested this since about 2000 though.

Guess I have a reason to get the old girl out for some shooting.

[heelerau]

Daryl,   will give a greased only patch a go, I have both neatsfoot and mink oil.  Wish we had elk or moose down  under, something worthwhile  to take her out after.

Cheers

Gordon

[Daryl]

Wish we had the hogs, goats, camels, scrub bulls, water buffalo and Sambar that you 'enjoy'.

I really would like to shoot a nice scrub bull - 1,000 pounds of meat?  Whooooooo!

[snapper]

Dont forget kangaroos.   I was pleasantly surprised how tasty they are.

Fleener

[Vomitus]

I'll checker it for ya! FREE!...I got a chainsaw and a file here somewhere! Oh, you want fine checkering? Shucks!...maybe the bro can give it a whirl,lol!