Help Me Decide on the Proper Gun to Build

[Jeff]

Hi to everyone. This is my first post. I am having trouble deciding on what to purchase for my first gun build. I want a big bore to hunt a 500 - 650 lb  black bear with. Almost a year to the day I have been studying to get myself ready to build it. The time has come. My favorite guns are the Hawkin, Lehigh, and Southern Mountain styles. I have skills, the patience and the desire to build. And I am not just kicking tires here. I truly and seriously want to build guns. The first gun will be for me and I want it to last so I can pass it down to my son. I have never hunted bear... but it is on the bucket list. Hopefully the 54 is the right choice. The gun will have to weigh no more than 10 lbs. and will have to be percussion.

Here are some of my questions:
1. Is 54 cal a good choice for the size bear I have mentioned?
2. I have read that guns with a lot of butt drop (like the Lehigh) really hurt to shoot in a large caliber. Is this so?
3. I want to build it out of grade 3 maple. But I have read where plain maple (with the grain running straight) is the strongest. Also, I have read that wood with a lot of figure is more difficult to work with and requires more skill to work. Additionally, I have read that big bore guns can wear out or eventually crack, splinter, or chip a figured stock at the breech. Is the grade 3 something I should stay away from?

I have to start with my questions sometime. But, I don't want to wear everyone here out. I welcome everyone's opinion. It will only help me build a better gun.

Thanks,
Jeff

[smart dog]

Hi Jeff,
If you are really serious about a bear gun, I would choose 58-62 caliber.  A 54 cal rifle will kill a bear but the bigger calibers are better at getting at the vital stuff.  Regardless, shot placement is key to killing bears not shock power.  Of the guns you mentioned, the Hawken is best suited for large caliber.  However, they are not easy builds and are not very good for a first gun.  I suggest an early long rifle like the Edward Marshall gun with a wide butt stock, large but well balanced barrel in 58 caliber. It would be easier to build right than a Hawken as a first gun and you can keep it as simple or fancy as you like and it would look good. Check out Chamber's Edward Marshall kit.

dave

[Mike Brooks]

Out of the three choices you offer up I'd say the Hawkin is the best choice, nothing quite like a Hawkin.... except for the hooked buttplate that will let you always remember that you shot it....
 Probably your best bet would be something along the  lines of a Lancaster gun, wide butted, fairly straight stocked. In fact any style of gun with out a lot of drop at the heel and a wide buttplate would work. Properly built, you don't have to worry about the grade of wood.

[Elnathan]

500-650 is about twice the size of the bears around here. Hunting bear with a flintlock is on my bucket list also. Did some informal research earlier this year  and it seems that there are two schools of thought regarding black bear. One group says that anything that will kill a deer reliably will kill a bear, and that they are not particularly difficult animals to kill. The other bunch want as much firepower as possible because bear. I personally am inclined to the former school, but I have no actual experience and the bears I'm used to are a lot smaller.

For a big bore percussion that is a little easier to build than a Hawken, you might want to look at some of the 19th century trade rifles or some of Hawkens' competitors - Don Stith has a H.E. Dimick parts set. Perhaps he will comment on it. Alternatively, you could build a percussion "conversion" of an earlier rifle. You will have problems with a sharp drop and a big bore unless the gun is very heavy. A lot of those SMR have very heavy barrels for their caliber.

I've used a couple of grade 3 stocks (one was never finished) and I didn't experience any problems. With a good blank I wouldn't worry.

[Joe S]

nothing quite like a Hawkin....

Except maybe a Hawken. They’re a lot like a Hawkin….

Jeff - In my experience, grade 3 maple is easy enough to work.  Chipping is not too likely to be a problem.  You should be able to stay under 10 pounds with any of the designs mentioned. There have been plenty of buffalo killed with .54 caliber rifles. 

[rich pierce]

That you want it percussion and big bored poses a problem in that many to most percussion originals had narrow buttstocks and deeply curved buttplates.  Not comfortable for everybody.  An English game rifle in percussion would work great.

If you prefer an American style gun, some of the trade rifles, the scroll guard, the English pattern, are options but kits are scarce or you'd have to fashion from parts you'd gather together, which would be challenging for a first build.

[sz]

I use this one.
I have never killed a bear with it, but I have killed one moose, 2 elk  5 deer and 4 antelope.
62 caliber.  I use a wheel weight ball and 140 grains of 3F.
Nothing goes far after taking a hit from it.Most (including the moose) drop at the shot.

[smart dog]

Hi Jeff,
Why does it have to be percussion?

dave

[smylee grouch]

I have two BEAR guns, the first is a 58 made with left over parts-wide butt-single trigger-straight tapper oct/round barrel. Ive killed four bear with it the largest being 340#. Gun two is a 62 along English lines with straight tapper oct. barrel. Both guns are flint with patent breeches. Iv'e killed four bear with the 62 the largest being 350#. Friends have killed bear with 50s and 54s with no problems but as has been said, shot placement is key. I built both guns for the bear/moose/elk hunting and chose the larger cal. for the extra power and I'm very glad I did.

[Daryl]

I lean with the large bore crowd.  In some parts of NA, the black bears run HUGE.  Around here, not so much, however my buddy's wife just shot a B&C bear locally.  The hide squared 7 1/2 feet and skull was over 20 1/2", so there are a few larger bears - probably closer to the 450 pound mark, than 300.  However, 300 pounds is still a large bear!
I could use my .50 for bear, but it's not a hunting rifle, more of a show/rendezvous plinker.  My 14 bore (.69) is for hunting, including bear, but I could be happy hunting them with a .54 or .58 as well. If there is a .6 at the front of the calibre number, that's even better.

I prefer a flat butt, myself - Edward Marshal is great in a Penn. rifle in a flinter, imho, or an English gun in cap lock cannot be improved upon.

I do not like the Hawken's buttplate Hooks in calibres that kick. I doubt you would either.

My flat butt English gun is VERY comfortable with a light plinking load of 3 drams (82gr.), and shoots quite nicely with double that amount of powder, however most guys here who have shot her, do not agree with that statement.

My 14 bore's butt.



Dan's 16 bore's butt.



Taylor's J. Lang's butt.



 A pair of S.Hawken's butts.



A couple more Hawken butts - both  .62's - ouch.

[Jeff]

Thanks for the replies guys. First, let me answer Dave's question. Dave, I want a percussion because after the bear hunt the gun will be used to deer hunt with my son. That is part of the reason why I don't want to go over 58 cal. We use portable ground blinds that are enclosed. Plus we sit pretty close together in that blind. Seems safer to me with a percussion gun than having a flintlock going off with him sitting next to me.

I know the size of the bear that I am talking about seems too big for a black bear. Personally, I thought 350 lbs was a big bear. I live in N.C. On the east coast of the state they are shooting bears that are over 600 lbs. I am going to hire a reputable guide service to take me out for them. (I am not completely insane) because I absolutely have no bear hunting experience.

Thanks for letting me know about the grade 3 maple. I was worried about that.

So from what I am reading, I should be looking for a wide butt gun that is fairly straight. I truly understand about the curved butt plate. I have thought of that myself. But it seems that most of the guns that I like have that. Another gun that I would really love to build is one like the rifle on the cover May/June issue of Muzzleloader. I have found almost everything I would need for it but I would have to inlay the lock and possibly the trigger. That just scares me. I have no mentor and I have a copy of The Gunsmith of Grenville County and have read it. But inlaying the lock just makes me nervous. Plus on a gun with that length of barrel my thought is that it would have to be swamped. Inletting that would have to be done by someone that knows what they are doing. And that is not me. Let me do some more looking today and I will get back on with some more options. Thanks to you all.

Jeff

[Tim Ault]

If your building a round ball rifle bigger is better  ,But a 50 cal with a maxi ball would be effective on big blackies  , our Pa. bears get pretty big a few 500-600 lb range are shot each year and 400 lb being fairly common size  .  The smaller 50 may open up some different options for you if you can find a barrel that will stabilize a maxi like a 1:48     Just an option

Tim

[Joe S]

But inlaying the lock just makes me nervous.

Don't worry about that.  It's not that hard.  The critical thing is getting it in the right spot, which is not too hard either.  You could practice inletting the lock on a scrap piece of wood to get your confidence up. 

For me, inletting the rear ramrod pipe is a lot harder than the lock.  So is shaping the stock.  Have someone inlet the barrel and drill the ramrod hole for you.  There are several folks here who offer that service.

I have no mentor and I have a copy of The Gunsmith of Greenville County and have read it.

That is exactly how I started.  My first gun came out OK, considering... The Gunsmith of Greenville County and this site will see you through.

[oldtravler61]

 Personally I don't see why you need such a big gun. Thousands are skilled every year with archery equipment. A 50/54 is plenty if you hit them where your supposed to. A poor shot will get you in trouble no matter what your using. Just my $.02. Oldtravler

[smylee grouch]

A 50 or 54 will get the job done but a 58 will do every thing those others will do and more. Stock design and fit will play a big role in your guns shooting comfort and ability to place your shot where it needs to be. Bear anatomy is a little different than a deers and their bones are alot heaver so shot placement is a little different also.

[Bill of the 45th]

I would go to the Jim Chambers website, and look at the Virginia rifle.  Its available in large calibers, is extremely comfortable shooting, and looks great.

Bill
P.S. Welcome to the site.

[Darkhorse]

For a first time builder who wants a comfortable shooting rifle, with a large bore and available in percussion, I would give a lot of thought to the Isacc Haines by Dunlap.
http://www.dunlapwoodcrafts.com/ComponentSets/TransitionIsaacHainesRifle.php

I personally like .54's and have owned several. I only have and shoot flintlocks but the learning curve can be steep so I understand the desire for a caplock.

I have had a couple of Hawken's with that deep crescent butt and it you shoulder on the upper bicep instead of the shoulder it won't kick near as bad.

[taco650]

I agree with Daryl that the curved, Hawken butt plates just inspire unnecessary pain.  Makes me wonder "what were they thinking?".

[Darkhorse]

What I have read about the curved buttplate is this, first you shoot it off the bicep, not the shoulder. This allows one to hide behind a tree and aim and fire his rifle while keeping most of one's hide hidden behind the tree. At the time I read this I had a hawken in .54 and it was really stinging my shoulder so I tried it off the bicep and I remember it was more comfortable to shoot.
So the simple thing to do is to shoot your curved buttplate off the bicep once and judge for yourself.

[Daryl]

Still hurts above about .54 calibre.  My .58 was almost unbearable- actually that is why I sold it, but then, I did a lot of experimenting with decent round ball loads. It had a Large barrel - late 1977 or so.  It would not shoot inside 6" at 100 yards with less than 140gr. 2F- with that, it would make 1 1/2" to 2" groups.  With 165gr. 2F, it shot well with a variety of modified minnies - right up to 675gr. RN - that one actually kicked WAY too much, which is not hard to imagine.
Even with 140gr and the 285gr. round ball, after a day's shooting, I was about worn out.
Yes, I shot it of the shoulder cup/arm pit upper heal hook hard on the collar bone, and tried off the bicep - THAT just plain hurt after 4 or 5 shots.
I was in fine shape in those days, too.  My current big rifle, the .69 does not hurt with the big loads, 165gr. and 482gr. ball. The flat butt says it all.

[Mike Brooks]

Still hurts above about .54 calibre.  My .58 was almost unbearable- actually that is why I sold it, but then, I did a lot of experimenting with decent round ball loads. It had a Large barrel - late 1977 or so.  It would not shoot inside 6" at 100 yards with less than 140gr. 2F- with that, it would make 1 1/2" to 2" groups.  With 165gr. 2F, it shot well with a variety of modified minnies - right up to 675gr. RN - that one actually kicked WAY too much, which is not hard to imagine.
Even with 140gr and the 285gr. round ball, after a day's shooting, I was about worn out.
Yes, I shot it of the shoulder cup/arm pit upper heal hook hard on the collar bone, and tried off the bicep - THAT just plain hurt after 4 or 5 shots.
I was in fine shape in those days, too.  My current big rifle, the .69 does not hurt with the big loads, 165gr. and 482gr. ball. The flat butt says it all.

Dad Gum, blew your hair clean off......

[hudson]

Hi Jeff, Take a look at the book California rifles 1846 – 1900 by Lawrence P. Shelton, plenty of ideas there. Not certain if there are any kits available for California rifles though.

[bob in the woods]

I hunt bears. The largest one I've shot was 450 pounds and was taken with a 10 bore Chambers New England fowling gun. Distance was approx. 10 yards.   This year my buddy and I saw a bear that probably weighed in the 600 # range.  Neither of us got a shot, but we'll try again this Fall.  Most bear hunting takes place at rather close ranges, so don't rule out a good smoothbore.
My bear hunting rifle is a .62 Chambers Edward Marshall . It is a joy to shoot, since the stock configuration handles recoil extremely well.  I got the upgrade maple stock and haven't had any problems . It is a beautiful rifle and has taken 3 bears.  BTW...the difference between the .54 and the .62 is significant.  I shot one bear at a measured 24 feet with the E.M rifle , and the results were spectacular.

[Joe S.]

Still hurts above about .54 calibre.  My .58 was almost unbearable- actually that is why I sold it, but then, I did a lot of experimenting with decent round ball loads. It had a Large barrel - late 1977 or so.  It would not shoot inside 6" at 100 yards with less than 140gr. 2F- with that, it would make 1 1/2" to 2" groups.  With 165gr. 2F, it shot well with a variety of modified minnies - right up to 675gr. RN - that one actually kicked WAY too much, which is not hard to imagine.
Even with 140gr and the 285gr. round ball, after a day's shooting, I was about worn out.
Yes, I shot it of the shoulder cup/arm pit upper heal hook hard on the collar bone, and tried off the bicep - THAT just plain hurt after 4 or 5 shots.
I was in fine shape in those days, too.  My current big rifle, the .69 does not hurt with the big loads, 165gr. and 482gr. ball. The flat butt says it all.

Dad Gum, blew your hair clean off......

Or he missed the injun he was shooting at and gave up his top knot

[Daryl]

That felt a might queersome!