Help Me Decide on the Proper Gun to Build

[Darkhorse]

Here is  thread from the past discussing shooting with crescent butt plates.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=29173.0

I personally, no longer care to shoot with a crescent butt plate. I am only interested in the Isaac Haines style and have 2, with maybe another build in the future. I just like the wide buttplate, straight stock and minimum drop. They just fit me well.

Daryl, with those kind of loads I would expect any style to kick like a mule. I only shoot normal charge weights up to 120 grs. 2f and haven't even shot those in years. So I can't really relate to the recoil generated with a crescent butt.

[Joe S.]

That felt a might queersome!
[/quoteNot sure but I think we tried to make a funny there?

[Daryl]

Brian Keith in "Mountain Men", when Charlton Heston asked him about being scalped.

[Joe S.]

Ahhhhh,forgot that one,great movie

[flehto]

My elk rifle now owned by my son is a .54 Pecatonica Hawken which has a more moderately shaped buttplate as pictured. The load used is 120 grs 3f, .530 RB and a .020 patch and the felt recoil isn't bad.....not at all like a crescent shaped Bplate on many Hawkens. One item that hasn't been mentioned seeing you son would shoot whatever you buy...Hawkens tend to be heavy and some are 12 lb rifles.....Fred 

[Long John]

Friend,

Every one has his/her opinion regarding caliber.  Its a question of trade-offs.  The larger caliber shoots a larger ball so it hits harder, all other factors being equal.  The problem is they aren't.  The larger the caliber the more the recoil, unless you load it lighter.  And some stock designs handle recoil better than others.  If you load it lighter then the trajectory suffers.  When trajectory suffers then range estimation errors increase and so the probability of a poor hit increases.  So each decision is going to have an impact on all sorts of factors.  We each have to assess the relative importance of the trade-offs against who we are and select what fits us best.

I selected a 54 caliber rifle that weighs 8.25 pounds.



It is patterned after RCA 53.  So it is somewhat similar in architecture to the Christians Springs rifles and the Lancaster rifles others have mentioned.  I would not hesitate shooting a bear with my 54.   My load produces 1725 feet per second with a 220 grain ball and hits 2.5 inches at 75 yards.  Recoil is pleasant and I can carry it all day.  But that was the fortuitous set of trade-offs I selected.  You might have different priorities.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

[taco650]

My elk rifle now owned by my son is a .54 Pecatonica Hawken which has a more moderately shaped buttplate as pictured. The load used is 120 grs 3f, .530 RB and a .020 patch and the felt recoil isn't bad.....not at all like a crescent shaped Bplate on many Hawkens. One item that hasn't been mentioned seeing you son would shoot whatever you buy...Hawkens tend to be heavy and some are 12 lb rifles.....Fred 

What does this rifle weigh?

I see that the photobucket debacle has raided a lot of pics from this thread.

[PPatch]

Here are a couple of thoughts for you Taco650

- give Jim Chambers Flintlocks a call and discuss one of their superb kits that they can supply a percussion lock with. They offer several percussion locks, check out their website.

- I don't believe you will go wrong with a .58 caliber gun.

- A Hawken style rifle is a tough build even for an experience builder, there is a lot going on with them and to get it right takes a great deal of research and a good eye. It is not a beginners build. Plus you'll end up with a big bore with a crescent buttplate, you really don't want that.

Welcome to ALR and good luck with your build.

dave

[Mauser06]

Far from an expert...


But like others have said, the stock design plays a big role into recoil and "hurt" factor. 


I have a Hawken-ish rifle I built that has a typical cresent butt plate and I thought I broke my collar bone after a range session (shooting a 300gr bullet and a decent powder charge)

I've shot much much heavier loads in my 62cal smooth rifle that has a wide flatter butt plate and the recoil isn't an issue.  I've shot balls through it and recoil isn't a problem at all.  I'm not recoil sensitive but a big bore or heavy charges in the wrong stock and butt plate flat out hurt.   

[Smoketown]

That felt a might queersome!

The Mountain Men ... Great movie !!   

Cheers,
Smoketown

[Jeff]

Thanks to all for the many suggestions. I have been looking again and have boiled it down to 3 guns.
* TOW Kit Carson
* TOW Issac Haines
* TVM Southern Mountain

Darkhorse, your suggestion was excellent. I had looked at that style before but I was just hawken minded at the time. I liked the kit that you suggested, but I really want a set of plans to work from since this is my first build. I feel I need something to go by. I need to see something as a reference.

One of the things to remember on recoil is the fact that the heavier the ball the more recoil you will get from it. I learned that from a guy around here that works on guns for game wardens in Africa. The more weight in grains of the bullet the more the recoil. Personally, going over a 120 grain powder charge makes me nervous.

Regardless, I am going to put a Rice barrel on it. A shorter gun is preferable because I hunt if fairly thick woods. I will have to make my decission soon because I want to order my barrel soon. Decissions, decissions.

Jeff

[WadePatton]

I hunt thick cover with a 42" bbl. (C-wt. 54) and would NEVER want to have less bbl length. It's a rifle, not a helicopter. I can push/pull/drag that long gun through all the places I want to go, no trouble. 

[Darkhorse]

Jeff, I have built the Isaac Haines by TOW and I'm well satisfied by the results. But before you make the decision take a look at the Isaac Haines by Dunlap wood. I think this may be a step up from TOW and maybe save a few bucks. There is also a build of Dunlap's on the internet that really gets into the details. I think it's by Bud Davidson I can find it if you want. I believe you can get either a 38" or 42" barrel. As for hunting in the thick stuff I prefer the 38" and if you hunt from a blind or covered stand sometimes even a 38" can be too long sometimes. But the 42" will give a little more velocity.
Of the 3 you mentioned only the Isaac Haines will have a swamped barrel. I will only have rifles with swamped barrels anymore as they just balance so well. And only the haines is cut for a wide comfortable butt plate. The other 2 have the crescent.
I have both Rice and Colrane swamped barrels and my targets prove to me one shoots as good as the other, so between the 2 it doesn't matter anymore.
My main charge for hunting deer and wild hogs is 85 grains of 3fg, it gets the job done and the recoil is comfortable.

[Jeff]

I am still trying to decide.    The responses from you guys put me back onto looking at other possibilities. I have gone back to the web and have been studying all kinds of styles. So now I come back to the forum with some questions. They may seem random, but there is a metheod to my madness. Your replies will be greatly appreciated.
1. Is the Hawken really that difficult for a first build? I have skills, but I am not a gun builder yet.

2. I see so many Hawkens that folks have built. Many of them have had to bend the hammer one way or another to get it to contact the nipple correctly. I even read where one of the guys from GRRW said that the original lock plate is bent into place on the original Bridger Hawken. Why? Is lining up the hammer that difficult without having to bend it? I am even looking at a full stock Hawken. I understand that things line up better and is an easier build than the half stock. Is this true?

3. I ran across Doc Whites article on "A Truely Traditional Hawken". He talks about the rounding of the side of the butt. He says that the center of the butt stock is 1/4" thicker than the butt plate. So I am just thinking that there is a taper of 1/8" on each side of the butt down to the butt plate. I have seen this on many of  the original Hawken pictures that I have seen for both full and half stock guns.  Do precarved stocks come with this bow or is there enough wood on these stocks to create this bow?

4. I still love the Lehigh. It has such a graceful look to me. I have only been able to look at this style of gun. I would really like to shoulder and shoot one. I have read where some talk about cheek slap. Like I have stated, this is going to be a 54 cal. gun. Is cheek slap inevitable with this gun? Is it a show stopper?

Darkhorse, as far as making sense for a style suggestion without a crescent butt, your suggestion seems to be the best. But it seems awful to build this gun without it being flint. Right now, a Haines design is in the top 3. Thank you for the suggestion.

Jeff

[KentSmith]

The best handling/shooting guns I've used were built around the 38" Dunlap Haines stocks. One 54 and one 58 cal it's a personal thing. I just like the way they came up and held with the shorter swamped barrel.  Do you know anyone with one of your options who will let you shoot and try them out.

A nice fowler is a fine option if longer shots aren't called gor

[KentSmith]

Man my finger are getting so crooked i can't type

[taco650]

Years ago I built one of the CVA Mountain Rifle kits.  It was a Hawken style rifle in .50 & was heavy but shot well. Times changed and so have my tastes so the Issac Haines or Christian Springs style rifles are more appealing.  I don't have one but that would be my suggestion because it will have the power you need in a comfortable shooting package.

[taco650]

Here's the link for the build mentioned by Darkhorse.
http://www.airbum.com/NeatShtpix/HainesPart1.html

[BJH]

If it were me, I would build a English rifle along the lines of Turveys work. However using a early Lancaster style stock like the Isaac Hains, I have built guns up to and including .75 cal. With no complaints about comfort. I personally test shot the .75. It would rock you, but not bruise you. If I could get another barrel fron Getz I would build another one for me. And I'm a bit recoil shy. The stock design and flat but is the key. My recommendation is a early Lancaster gun. Flint or percussion conversion. BJH

[utseabee]

     This is what I hunt bear with. It's a .58 caliber. 115 grains ffg with 530 round ball. There is no recoil on this rifle what so ever. If you wanted percussion, you could use Chambers Golden Age percussion conversion lock and it would look like an early rifle that was converted to percussion.


upload pic

[Chowmi]

Jeff,
yes, the Hawken really is a difficult build, providing you want to do it right.  Not one for a first time builder.  The reason you see so many Hawkens around is because 95% of them aren't Hawkens. 

I will chime in and agree with others, that you should look closely at some of the early guns.  Many were converted to percussion in their lifetime, and you can plausibly build an early gun with a percussion lock.  Christian's Spring, Edward Marshall, Issac Haines, Lancaster etc etc have all been mentioned.  All of those will have a swamped barrel and balance nicely.  They will all have a wide buttplate, making big loads more comfortable to shoot. 

You mentioned not wanting to inlet a swamped barrel.  A kit will do 90% of the work for you on barrel inlet.  Don't worry about that.  There is more to worry about than the barrel inlet. 

And again, probably not a Lehigh.  You won't like shooting a big bore Lehigh. 

If you want it to be a gun that you pass down, don't do a Hawken badly.  Do an early gun, converted to percussion, without much embellishment and do it well. 

Jim Chambers offers percussion conversion locks, perfect for what you are looking for. 

Cheers,
Norm