Need Help in Id'ing old 1820 marked rifle

[DanWest]

I recently acquired an old Virginia / Pennsylvania rifle with a great engraved patch box.
I'm having a bit of trouble Id'ing the old rifle.
There is an initial plate on top of the barrel with pretty sure  J. M. on it and the barrel measures a full 46 1/2" long.
The patch box is fully engraved with the date of 1820 as you can see in our photo.
It is a full stock which had several inlays including a Federal Eagle on the cheek piece. The cheek Piece is a very light beaver tail.
It was originally a flintlock and appears to have the converted original lock.
It I believe will be a very nice one for restoration.
If anyone can help identify this maker , I would surely appreciate it.







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[rich pierce]

Looks like it was built using some parts from an earlier rifle. That buttplate and guard look much earlier to me. The patchbox looks 1820 so that should provide the best clue.

[Shreckmeister]

The patchbox lid extends further beyond the butt than I am used to seeing?

[DanWest]

The patchbox door actually does not extend past the end of the buttplate.  Ive posted a few better photos of this old gun. I was hoping someone might recognize the (name / initial) plate or the patchbox design and engraving. The gun had several inlays including a vent pick under the cheekpiece. Any further help would be appreciated. Thanks





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[Tanselman]

I think the initials might actually be "J * W" on the barrel. Could you possibly post a picture of the back side of the butt, from butt plate out to about 8 or 10 inches past the side facings where lock sits on opposite side, so we can see the design of the cheekpiece, as well as the side plate opposite the lock plate? Those details can at times help put a rifle into a geographic area. The long barrel and two-screw extended tang may suggest a southern origin, but we need to see more of the gun. Shelby Gallien

[Mike Brooks]

I'll get brave and go way out on a limb, this is just wild speculation on my part. The long 2 screw tang, the triggers and the "hooks" on the patch box side plates makes me think of something out of NC.

The 1820 is cut by a different hand than the rest of the box engraving.

How wide is that butt plate?
 I'll also vote for "JW" on the barrel.
Very interesting relic.

[KPO]

Your Rifle was made by John Waisner of Rowan Co. NC He apprenticed to Henry Bruner III.

[Mike Brooks]

Your Rifle was made by John Waisner of Rowan Co. NC He apprenticed to Henry Bruner III.

I'm probably the bestest guesser ever.......

[DanWest]

Pics from cheek piece side. A rather diminuitive cheekpiece but with what was a silver federal eagle (obviously removed for silver value) and filled with something silver looking and a mortise for a vent pick.


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[Burg]

Dan if you will pm me with your email address I will send you some photos of my J*W rifle.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I am thinking North Carolina as well.  The NC schools were fond of the federal eagle.  Also the engraving at the very front of the lid mirrors that engraving on the patchbox "tab" in sort of a half moon pattern. 

Cory Joe Stewart

[DanWest]

Posted a few more photos of this gun.
The trigger guard engraving.
The patchbox release mechanism. Inside the patchbox & and an old family note that came with the gun.






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[wormey]

There are many things about this rifle that trouble me.  The only thing I see that looks North Carolina to me are the triggers.  The stock looks much too early to me: the butplate is much too small, the brass screws are all obvious replacements for steel/iron screws, the lockplate looks much later than the overall shape of the gun, the barrel appears to be a very nice early swamped Pennsylvania piece; the "J. W" looks nothing like any Waisner signature I have ever seen and I have seen several including the one on Berg`s rifle.  I think it is a fairly early Pennsylvania rifle with a replaced buttplate and an improper latter period lock inlet into the lock mortice.  The patchbox could be original to the piece with the exception of the brass screws.  Appears to be a nice rifle in need of some serious restoration.  Oh, yes and another thing, that beavertail cheek piece looks like nothing I have seen on an early rifle like that nor is it consistent with a Waisner rifle. 

[wormey]

One other thing I forgot.  That "1820" date does not appear to be by the same hand as the other ingraving.  Much less skillfully done.

[DanWest]

where can i upload images
After purchasing Mr. Briggs fine book The Longrifle Makers of the Rowan School
and closely examining the Waisner nameplate shown on pp 54 , this barrel I have is without a doubt the same maker,John Waisner.
It's over 46" long, never been cut and mounts within the stock as it has never been altered or stock replaced.
The upper finial part of the patchbox is identical to the same Waisner rifle and shown on pp 52.
Although the cheekpiece is a bit of a quandry the vent pick inlay mortise is near to identical of same Waisner gun shown on pp 54.
Inlay mortises up the forearm on both sides are the same inlay shown for the Waisner rifle in Mr. Briggs book.
The unmarked gun but I believe attributed gun to Waisner found on pp 100 of Briggs book shows a nearly identical silver Federal Style Eagle inlay.
As far as the 1820 engraved in another hand I respectively disagree.
The gun is in need of serious restoration,that's a given. The brass screws in the patchbox, the broken toe of the buttplate, small areas of stock chipped around lock, and the missing silver inlays are the obvious. This is the way it has survived to this date.
I will restore it.

[Mike Brooks]

I've studied up a bit now and it's definitely a Waisner gun. The strange thing about it to me is the cheek piece, just not a Rowan thing....restock? I don't know, doubt it.
  Did you show this to Mike Briggs? It's a rare gun , I think this may be only the third one known.