Juker Kentucky re build -- My first post

[Old and grumpy]

Hello.  This is my first post.

I got into Black Powder a few years back with pistols.  Then guns just started showing up!  Lonely old girls behind the shinny new ARs.  Like the tall girl at the prom who sort of sticks out.

Some time back I was looking at a Juker flint. Looked too long and lost it.

The other day I pulled the trigger fast on a percussion in better condition at a lower price. She was in the way back of the shop with just the ram rod sticking out of a stack of rifles.

This will probably be Christmas for my kid.  He don't know that he likes BP yet. But he does!

The rifle is fairly old so they were still using wood with some nice grain. I will treat this like a new out of the box kit. The plan is to strip it, thin and re shape parts  of the stock so it looks more like a custom gun than a kit and re blue/rust? the barrel.  I had a real good link on how to do this but Photobucket  messed it up with the junk they are pulling.  http://www.tradrag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5418     

I did study the link back when I was looking at the flint so I have a good idea what to do.

This is the new girl with the pistol I built. A CAV kit from 1979. Only took 30 years to finish! Keep in mind that when I built it I had never held or seen a Kentucky in person.  Today I would do much differently.

I am open to ideas. What I know is that I don't know it all.   Thanks  O$G.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

O & G:  first welcome to this website.  You are apt to receive lots of advice and architectural information that will vary but will likely have a common theme.  Sort through the advice and pick from it what works for you.  But my own first bit is to be critical of what you have, comparing it to original work, and GOOD contemporary work.  If you have 'the eye' and are honest, you will see that there is way more wood, from the back of the lock to the muzzle, than you need or want.
So first check how much wood exists between the bottom of the rod hole in the lower forestock, to the bottom of the forestock.  With the barrel out of the stock, drill a 1/16" hole through the web between the barrel channel and the hole.  Then a thin wire can be inserted until it touches the bottom of the rod hole.  Measure this length and compare it to the side of the stock to see how much wood remains under the rod hole.  If there is more than 3/32", cut away the bottom of the stock from the entry pipe to behind the trigger.  This will slim the stock in its vertical plane and make it much more graceful.
The top of the forestock where it meets the barrel should be a knife edge;  rounded up to nothing, so that in conjunction with reducing the height of the forestock, you will get away from the slab-sided flatness that you currently have.  You will be removing a fair amount of wood in this exercise and will have to re-inlet the trigger and the guard.  You might want to check a few catalogues to see if you can find a nicer looking guard...one that doesn't attach with screws!
These stocks are made fast and furious, with as little hand work as possible in order to keep the selling price as low as possible.  They use a system called 'slack-sanding' where a belt grinder is used to remove and smooth out the stock as fast as possible.  This method leaves the lock mouldings way to chubby.  So again, study examples that you admire and see if you can cut those mouldings to a much narrower and more pleasing shape.  Avoid the rat-tailed file, at the rear end of the panels at least.  A slight concave there is fine but it should not be a really tight radius.

That's enough for now.  It would be easy to overwhelm you with too much helpful advice.   Good luck and keep us in the loop.

[Dale Halterman]

You're taking me back, my first muzzleloader was a Jukar flint rifle that a friend of a friend built from a kit. I bought the disaster from him for $20. If the lock on the flint rifle you were looking at was the same as mine, you should be thankful you didn't get it.

Taylor is right about too much wood, but there is no need to drill a hole since you have a two piece stock. Just take it apart and you can see what Taylor is talking about.

Welcome to ALR.

Dale H

[conquerordie]

I have both of those in flintlock. They were my grandfather's. He gave them to me a couple months before he passed. I was maybe 15. I don't use them, but I'll never let m go!
Good luck with your project. This is a great way of getting into stocking and learning.
Greg

[T*O*F]

I did one maybe 25 or more years ago.  Kept the lock, but replaced the T-gard, sideplate, buttplate, thimbles, and nosecap.  I used parts that were slightly larger so I didn't have to redo any of the inlets.  Reshaped the stock and replaced the brass spacer with one made from Osage Orange.  Stained it with aqua fortis.  Sold it on eBay for $650 back when they still allowed you to sell ML's.

[taco650]

I just started on one of those rifles I bought in kit form.  I've been reading on here for several months and am slowly reshaping the stock to look less clunky.  It's only my second rifle build (the first was in 1980) so I'm starting over as a newby too.  Keep us updated on your progress, would love to see how you make this your own!

[Mike Brooks]

I think I'd just leave it alone and shoot it. It's always still going to be a Jukar no matter how much you mess with it.

[n stephenson]

WELCOME!!!  I can see Mike`s point about it always being Jukar. I also think it could be good practice for reshaping . Maybe an inlay or to for practice. If you  do ruin it ,your not out a whole lot. In worst case you may get to learn how to restock !HAHA !. As long as you don't ruin the barrel, lock , trigger arrangement you should be OK.             Nate

[Old and grumpy]

Thanks for the feed back. Lot of good Info. Just got into long guns.  This is #2. The first is a .58  Zouave. It just sort of showed up!

It WILL always be a Juker. Will never fool them at the Roundup.  But at 1/3 the price of the cheapest new kits there is nothing to loose!  I get more joy out of fixing up a  old girl than popping a new one out of the box.

I respect the tradition.  But it's not a religion for me. I have already sinned against Boone and Crockett by using the lazer bore sight on it. 

Went to the range.  It shoots straight at 50 yards but very low. The bore is the question. I could feel the rough spots loading it.   I need a better bore light.  It's rough but like I said it shoots straight.  Next I will get out the JB bore polish. It works well on old barrels.

This is a .45 cal.  The same 7/8" barrel stock as the old CVA pistol kits I have with Juker marks.  I used a .440 junk lead ball, T shirt patch with home lube and  50gr 3f Goex.   ( I know that might be part of the problem )    I am finding load data from 50 to 90gr. I am open to ideas on what to feed her.  I will not be hunting bears with it!

Like I said the pistol up top was built before I had held a Kentucky. Before the internet.  I have a LOT to learn.

Thanks  O&G

[DFHicks]

What is JB bore polish?
Thanks,
Greg

[FDR]

http://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=JB+bore&ksubmit=y
JB compounds are use a lot in modern firearms.

Fred

[Old and grumpy]

A miracle for removing heavy CRUD. Cleaned up a old .22 that I could not see the rifling!  That was after the other lead removers failed.  I use it on all barrels old or new.  It's a lot of work but I can give you tips. This is not a every time thing.

http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/solvents-degreasers/bore-cleaning-paste/j-b-reg-non-embedding-bore-cleaning-compound-prod1160.aspx

Also want to try this but you use it at the range.  He shows before and after pictures. It's on my list to buy.

http://www.frontiermuzzleloading.com/t9546-new-frontier-s-shoot-out-patch-lube-bore-enhancer

[Hungry Horse]

O&G;

  I was given a Jukar belt pistol years ago. Since I was never much of a pistol shot, I saw no reason to buy, or build, a fancy target pistol. I used it as a practice gun for all the skills I needed to learn while building my first few rifles, and fowlers.  So it got a poured pewter nose cap, an under rib, a little stock restyling, a recrowned on the barrel,  and some additional parts to upgrade the lock ( they are very similar to the old CVA locks).
  An old timer at a Rendezvous told me these pistols have the same 1in48" twist as the rifles, and don't shoot all that well with the average 20-30 grains of powder, most pistols use. So, I tried shooting it with a slightly reduced rifle size charge, and discovered that the cheapo gun shot pretty well. In fact it shot so well that my shooting buddy kept borrowing it and outshooting me with it.
 There are several generations of these guns with slight differences. Mine is a first generation with a three digit serial number stamped with individual number stamps. The barrel on this gun is quite good. I was given a later production version, that had such a poor barrel that I reamed it out smooth.

  Hungry Horse

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

 I used a .440 junk lead ball, T shirt patch with home lube and  50gr 3f Goex.

I would not expect this load to stay on the paper at 20 yards.  Cast balls from pure lead - not junk lead.  Use pure cotton drill, twill, or denim for patch material.  Your T Shirt is almost certainly some synthetic - the worst stuff you could use for patches.  Sight it in with spit for lube - lots of spit, not just damp.  Drop the charge to 30 gr. or so.

Then tell me how it loads and shoots.

[Daryl]

IF it has a 48" twist as suspected by Hungry Horse, I would expect it to shoot well with 30 to 40gr. 3F, using the rest of the suggestions of Taylor's - that is, USING THEM as noted - pure lead and cotton pathes.

[Mike Brooks]

35 years ago the CVA guns that looked like that had barrels that shot very well. Most kept the barrels and restocked them and threw the rest of the gun away.

[Hungry Horse]

Actually the old pistol shot fairly well with forty grains of 3F, and got better as it neared fifty grains. Thirty grains just didn't make it happen for some reason.
 This is the older style gun with the "bar in wood" style lock. The internals from a CVA mountain rifle lock were used as replacement parts. So the lock now has a bridle, and fly, in it.

  Hungry Horse

[Old and grumpy]

Got some answers and a lot more questions.

Twist--- I ran a very tight patched rod all the way in. Marked the rod and slowly pulled it out. When the mark had made half a rotation I measured from muzzle to mark and multiplied  that by 2.  Did this several times.  The twist is about  1 in 60" or 62".

Serial # is just over 1800. Not hand stamped.

Patch-- I did check before making them that the T shirt was 100% Cotton. Don't want them to melt!  A .010 factory patch was tight. Another slightly thicker was almost too tight.  Polishing the bore will help a lot with that.

Because my CVA kits have Juker marks and the lock on the pistol is the same one exactly on the rifle and the barrel, drum ,and tang are exactly the same I dug out the CVA book that came with the kits from the 70s. 

In .45cal rifles they say to use--
  Ball  .440
  Patch  .012 to .015
  Powder  Starting 45gr 2f   Max 75gr 2f

Like I said, with the load I used a few posts up it did shoot straight keeping all on a 12" target at 50 yards in a fairly stiff cross wind.
-----------
Questions--

   I cast pure lead for cap and ball and other stuff that will engage the rifling. A patched ball rides in the patch not engaging the rifling.  So what is the advantage to pure lead in a patched load if I have a well cast ball?  I can get lead fairly cheep but pure is hit and miss. I save it for when it must be used.

   Removing the breach.  Don't think I need to but polishing the bore would be much easier with it out. Looks like the drum may be threaded through in to the plug.  Any thoughts on this?


I am working up the nerve to start sanding.  Thanks.

[JB2]

Yes, the drum is threaded into the breech plug.  And there is some reports that they were both torqued until they deformed, and that you may never get them apart.  I did get one out, once, but it had never been fired.  I never tried again after it was fired.  While I had it out, I did bore out the powder chamber to 5/16", to make it a little easier to clean.  Probably not necessary.  Just make sure you always use enough powder to fill the powder chamber, + some, if you do that.

If it's shooting so low, after you get a group you're happy, you can definitely file some off the front sight.  I remember those kits came with awfully tall front blades, pistol and rifle. 

[SingleMalt]

Your rifle reminds me of my first longrifle, a CVA "Kentucky Rifle" kit i got for Christmas in about 1974.  It was fun to shoot!