Author Topic: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL  (Read 6938 times)

Offline David Price

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BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« on: August 17, 2017, 02:37:20 AM »
A couple of months ago I built a fowler for someone that came out quite nice.  It shot a really nice group, the only problem was it shot about six inches low and about three inches to the left.  I decided to bend the barrel.  This is always scary.   I have only done this about three  times and the last time was a long time ago.

The first two pictures show the set up in my milling machine.  First I put a piece of square tubbing in the vices which are about two feet apart.  Then I put a block at each end for the barrel to rest on.  The barrel sets on the blocks at each end and then I placed a thick piece of leather on top of the barrel and a piece of wood on top of the leather.  The clamp hooks under the tubbing and on top of the barrel.  I then placed some spacers between the barrel and the tubbing to act as a stop.  I measured the distance between the barrel and the tubbing before the first bend.  Each time I would bend it I would remove one of the spacers.  The barrel flexed almost three quarters of an inch as you can see in the pictures before I got .020 of an inch bend.  The large C clamps that you see are there just in case the barrel slipped out of the bending clamp when under tension.

The bend was enough to bring the group up, and the odd thing is it also brought it over  to the right the three inches that it needed to be on center.  Figure that one out.

David Price
















photos to upload

Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2017, 02:57:15 AM »
Wow ! That's a lot of flex..

It wouldn't happen to be a 44" Colerain barrel would it ?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 02:57:49 AM by Smo »
Smo

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Offline David Price

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2017, 03:31:19 AM »
Smo

I don't know who made the barrel, it came with a Jim Chambers kit.  There is nothing wrong with the barrel,  it was shooting a beautiful tight group, just not in the right place.  It is now!!!

It is a little scary to bend a barrel on a finished gun.  I will attach pictures of the finished gun.

David Price








Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2017, 05:12:54 AM »
Beautiful gun !  My nearves would have been shot bending it...

I like the set up you used , it seems to be a little more controlled than the forks of a tree.
Smo

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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2017, 05:59:53 AM »
I had to bend a fowler barrel once.   I was a little less scientific about it and it took 2-3 tries.   

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2017, 04:20:24 PM »
I use EXACTLY the same method except imagine that big beam is a cement floor, those two blocks of steel are 4X4's laying on the floor and the middle clamp is my foot as I bounce up and down on the barrel. Works perfectly every time.
 If time is of issue I still prefer a tree crotch. just jam it in the crotch, give the barrel the "old heave ho" till you feel it "give", (make sure your bending in the right direction, helps to be really smart at this point) then slap the barrel back in the gun and see where it shoots.
 Most all of my old fowling gun antiques have barrels that are crooked as a dog's hind leg.
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n stephenson

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2017, 04:32:20 PM »
David, Nice Gun!!  I like your set up . Those pictures are cringe worthy !!!! Thanks for posting. Nate

Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2017, 04:37:03 PM »
A Guy I know said he likes to bend the barrel just past the required amount needed then ease it back the other direction until it shoots where you point it. He uses the tree method and has done several barrels over the years with great success.
Smo

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Offline jerrywh

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2017, 05:56:08 PM »
 I have a regular barrel straightening press like they used in Belgium for 200 years.  The first thing you need to do is to determine where the bend is. You should be able to do this by looking through the barrel at the light rings.  I would make some wooden blocks that have a half round groove in them to fit the barrel where you intend to press. A flat board or block can make a dent in the barrel or flat spot. A lot depends on the kind of steel it is made of but I have flexed a 1137 barrel as much as 3" just to get a correction of .010"  I put a lazer in the muzzle to check them when done. Remember this. The barrel will shoot where ever the last 6" of the barrel is pointing. The only thing that changes that is the sight alignment.  12L14 does not take as much bend to correct as 1137.  After all this - Since your David Price I guess you don't' need any advise form this old coot HUH? Nice to hear from you Dave. Good setup.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 06:02:01 PM by jerrywh »
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2017, 01:48:25 AM »
 somebody sent me a private massage and wanted t oknow where I got the barrel straightening pres like they had for 200 or 300 years in Belgium.  I made it. I have a photo of it someplace and will post it soon since Kinkgsburyarms has my website back up and running. Found one.  
 This is a photo from a book that gave me the idea for my press. This photo is probably over 100 years old.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 02:28:51 AM by jerrywh »
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Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2017, 01:56:57 AM »
That is a cool device - wow - I didn't know that it was (maybe) more common than I thought to bend barrels as an adjustment to the accuracy. I need to learn more....

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2017, 03:13:12 AM »
I find the complexity some folks go through to do a simple job amazing. ???
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Adrie luke

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2017, 06:38:25 PM »
It is good to see how you bend the barrel.
When I made the little barrel it was straight.
When I looked trough the barrel hole I saw it was a little bit bended, I do not know what happened.
I did it in the same way as you did. I had to bend it a lot for almost nothing to get it straight again.

When you look at you tube by Barrel Making at Pedersoli factory you can see a bending machine.
It is very interesting to see how this machine works. I sent you the link.



Offline jerrywh

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2017, 08:22:58 PM »
I find the complexity some folks go through to do a simple job amazing. ???
    It all depends on what degree of accuracy one expects to achieve.  Slamming a barrel up against a tree trunk rarely achieves any degree of accuracy. simple as you make it sound. No prominent barrel maker would ever agree with you.
 But it sounds good to all the bead and feather guys.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2017, 08:23:27 PM »



Jerry-
this one, is about identical to Les Bauska's (Kalispel) barrel straightening machine I played with in 1975. I straightened a stack of barrels, probably 20 or so.  Nice working machine.
Daryl

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Offline flehto

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2017, 08:47:37 PM »
To all the bbl bending experts...after the bbl is initially corrected by bending  by whatever method is used, is there  some "creep back" later on?....Fred

Offline jerrywh

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2017, 11:02:21 PM »
 when bending any piece of steel or metal, the the barrel has to be bent passed the yield point in order to acieve a perminent deflection. Every steel has a yield point and it can be looked up on the steel manufactureres site but it is not neccesary because if the barrel bends and does not return it has passed the yield point. When a piece of steel passes the yield point it is permanently weekend at the  point of the bend. when a barel is bent to the yield point one side of the barrel is stretched. There are experts on this forum who know a lot more. One danger of bending back and forth to achieve the desired result is the barrel is weakend more every time you bend it. Lucky thet black powder has such a low pressure. 
   This is why a barrel has to be bent so far to achieve a permanent bend. It has to pass the yield point.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2017, 11:46:02 PM »
I find the complexity some folks go through to do a simple job amazing. ???
    It all depends on what degree of accuracy one expects to achieve.  Slamming a barrel up against a tree trunk rarely achieves any degree of accuracy. simple as you make it sound. No prominent barrel maker would ever agree with you.
 But it sounds good to all the bead and feather guys.
Jerry, you've been living under a rock. You'd be surprised how many of the top gun makers bend barrels the same way I do. Where do you think I learned to do it?
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2017, 03:01:55 AM »
I find the complexity some folks go through to do a simple job amazing. ???
    It all depends on what degree of accuracy one expects to achieve.  Slamming a barrel up against a tree trunk rarely achieves any degree of accuracy. simple as you make it sound. No prominent barrel maker would ever agree with you.
 But it sounds good to all the bead and feather guys.
Jerry, you've been living under a rock. You'd be surprised how many of the top gun makers bend barrels the same way I do. Where do you think I learned to do it?
   I don't know where you learned to do it and it depends on your definition of top gun maker. I know many of the best gun  makers in the world in the American custom gun makers guild. David price and myself don't Mondarino would never do it.  They never even did it in Belgium 300 years ago.  Sorry my friend but your theory just doesn't hold water. Any body who professes the best way to do it is bend it in a tree  notch is just plain wrong.  Hershal or anybody else who does it is wrong.
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2017, 03:25:54 AM »
 A lot of the best gun makers in the world are under the same rock as me Mike. We prefer it to the alternative.
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n stephenson

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2017, 03:27:07 PM »
Jerry and Mike The only way to settle it is. Both of you start with a bent barrel , stand back to back , at the signal , you will both take ten steps forward and quickly turn around , whoever straightens their barrel first is the winner . I suppose a prize could be put up , or you just get to leave with a straight barrel and, bragging rights.      Nate

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2017, 05:26:02 PM »
A lot of the best gun makers in the world are under the same rock as me Mike. We prefer it to the alternative.

 I now have to keep in mind that all the best gun builders have these barrel bending contraptions set up in their shop somewhere, that's a large pill to swallow. The time it took you to build just your "machine" is probably the same amount of time I have spent bending every barrel I have ever bent. I just don't have the time or resources to  fiddle the day  away making contraptions and gadgets when 2  4X4's and my foot will accomplish the same thing in less than a minute.  I honestly don't know how you would feel the "give" in the barrel using a "C" clamp set up or the crazy space machine thingus..

Did you ever talk to Don Getz about how he bent barrels....he probably wouldn't have been qualified to know anything about it I suppose...

I suppose Dickert and all those fellows had these barrel bending contraptions back in the day as well.

For those of you that have never bent a barrel by "hand" it's pretty scary . Once you do it you'll wonder what the big deal is. I use two different methods. I tried whacking the barrel against a telephone poll one  time, but it hurt my hands and didn't bend....I also felt I didn't have any control, never tried it again. I used to use a crotch in a tree also, it works fine and you have good control and can "feel" the bend when it lets go. These days I throw two 4X4's on the floor and place the barrel on top. I put my foot somewhere around the middle of the barrel and start to apply pressure by standing on the barrel. Some of the oct barreled smooth rifle barrels can give you a pretty good bounce.
  You'll feel the barrel "give" once it actually bends. I set a 4' straight edge against the barrel to see how much it has bent. I generally put the barrel back in the gun at this point and see where it shoots. If it doesn't shoot where I want I'll bend it again.  I recheck with a straight edge to see how much more bend I got then reassemble and shoot. On good days I can usually do one bend and I'm set. The average is probably two, and a bad day would be three bends, the last one because I went too far. This stuff is not rocket science, it's really simple.
  You will not kink the barrel using two 4X4's on the floor so don't worry about it. The only way you could kink a barrel in a tree crotch is if you were born a moron. The only kinked barrel I have seen was on a gun I built that flew out of a truck cab on a roll over. The last foot was bent probably 90* to the left. I straightened the barrel but you   could still see the kink from the outside and the bore was kinked as well. I declared it dead. Several years later I saw some guy carrying it around for sale as a shooter. Of course he was selling it with a kinked barrel for more than I sold it for new.... ::) Somebody had restored the gun (It was badly shattered through the wrist) and this guy was shooting it bare ball. He stated it shot fine. I think someone like Hoyt probably could have bored it out to the next size up or put a liner in it and it would have been fine.

« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 05:29:46 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2017, 06:19:10 PM »
After carefull consideration I believe this is all a personality thing. Some folks just have to have loads of gadgets to get the job done and others just get out the Woo-Woo stick and have at it. Both ways end up with a barrel that shoots where it's supposed to.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline jerrywh

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2017, 08:24:36 PM »
After carefull consideration I believe this is all a personality thing. Some folks just have to have loads of gadgets to get the job done and others just get out the Woo-Woo stick and have at it. Both ways end up with a barrel that shoots where it's supposed to.
  I don't think it is a personality difference.  It's a difference between a primitive and a higher tech method. The barrels you see in the photo of my machine are custom made. The muzzle thickness is .032" they are silver brazed together and are 32" long. They cost about $5000.00 to make a that point. They have a bend of .010". The end cost of those barrels will be about $40,000.00 or more when engraved. You just don't jump up and down on them.
  They aren't the same as a colerain $175.00 barrel. That's the difference Mike.  What's right for you won't work for me. Some of the men I know who make custom guns make guns that sell for $250,000.00 or more. My definition of top gun maker is not the same as yours.  That's the difference. It has no reflection upon our relationship. I don't know you personally but I think we would be real good friends because Many of my friends are
 like you and I help them make guns all the time.  Once in a while I make a plain guns for fun.
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Offline Joe S.

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Re: BENDING A FOWLER BARREL
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2017, 08:34:45 PM »
Hmmmm.......interesting but I do have a question what percentage of barrels come from your suppliers bent?a shipping issue?