Thomas Simpson Captured Lid Patch Box photo's and related patch boxes

[bama]

Moderator this should probably go in the Antique section of the forum. You may switch if it needs to move.

These are photo's of my Thomas Simpson rifle's patch box and a rifle in  my collection that I feel is closely related to the Simpson rifle. The second rifle is a later period gun and it is not made by Simpson but I feel that the gunsmith had a close relationship with Simpson because the body of the patch box is almost identical to the body of the Simpson patch box, although the finial portion is a great deal different as you will see. The second rifle is signed but the signature is not readable. There are a couple of possibilities who this gunsmith may be. It could possibly be by one of the Young's, maybe David. We do know that there is mention of him being a gunsmith but there are no known rifle's by his hand. There is another possible gunsmith that I am researching that could also be the maker. His family has ties to Thomas Simpson but before I through his name into the mix I want to complete my research.

I have also included a picture of a Lexington patch box. I think these patch boxes and the Simpson and Young patch boxes share a few design similarities and my have been influenced by the Simpson design.

Enjoy the pictures.

Thomas Simpson Patch Box



Related Rifle Patch Box




Lexington Patch Box

[bgf]

Thanks, would you mind taking pictures of backside and possibly inlet in stock?  There was a very good question a while back about how exactly to implement this type of latch, and I have only faked it to make it work, having never seen the internals .  They have a very precise feel mechanically, wonder how it's done!

The toggle on the related box looks identical in shape to the Simpson rifle.  I can't remember for sure, but I think the one on the Jacob Young Whitley rifle is slightly different in shape and size?

[Chowmi]

That's super cool, thanks for posting the pictures.

[Mike Brooks]

2nd vote for a picture of the back!

[Swampwalker]

Third vote, I would love to see the catch mechanism. 
Thanks for posting!

[BOB HILL]

Thanks for posting these pictures, Jim. Some shots of the catch and back would also be great. Thanks again.      Bob

[cyrus1066]

is there a tutorial on how to do a silver /brass patchbox finial as above ......
Don

[bama]

Don I do not think that there is a tutorial on silver overlay. The is done two ways from what I can tell. One way is to re leave the brass just like you are in letting a part then cut a thin silver piece to match and silver solder it in place. Another way is just to overlay a thin piece of silver and solder it in place without releaving the brass.

Thomas Simpson used both methods. The silver on the patch box is just an overlay of a thin fine silver sheet. If you look closely at the decoration in the middle of the finial you can see a couple of spots where the silver has worn through to the brass. The side plate also has silver on it but it has been releaved where the silver was added.

Just to add a little more information about the quality of the craftsmanship of Thomas Simpson all of the brass furniture on this rifle was cast. The side plate and the toe plate are both cast. Now this may not sound all that fantastic but I got with Richard Sullivan who is now the head of the gun shop at Colonial Williamsburg and we made castings of the originals. The side plate was a very difficult piece to cast. We did manage to get a few good side plates but there were several that did not turn out. We were sand casting these parts as I am sure was done by Thomas Simpson.

Many of you have asked for a picture of the back side of the box. So here it is.

[Mike Brooks]

Thanks Jim, appreciate the effort.

[BOB HILL]

Thanks, Jim. Interesting work.     Bob 

[cyrus1066]

Hi Bama.........thanks for the info re the silver to brass inlay........
Is it possible any builders have a series of images of this type of work
 toupload or links to websites etc.i cannot find anything
Don
 

[Tanselman]

Here is another Simpson style patchbox that surfaced earlier this year. The rifle is rather plain, no inlays or engraving, but does have original wire loops under cheekpiece for a vent pick and an original late period flintlock on it.  Shelby Gallien

[bama]

Shelby that is a great rifle. I find it very interesting that hinge is hidden like on the Lexington patch boxes. Is this rifle signed?

[Mike Brooks]

Shelby that is a great rifle. I find it very interesting that hinge is hidden like on the Lexington patch boxes. Is this rifle signed?

Also just like some NC rifles, although it isn't one.

[Tanselman]

Here are full length views of the rifle with the Simpson style patchbox. It is not signed and the barrel is about 44 inches long and lightly swamped. The guard is iron, and may be a period replacement. Shelby Gallien

[Mike Brooks]

Where did Simpson work?

[jcmcclure]

Where did Simpson work?

There is evidence, that Mel Hankla has found, that Thomas Simpon and Jacob Young's father (William Young) were working in Western North Carolina/East TN Watauga region during the period of the revolution. He is documented from the Watauga in his early years and eventually made his way to Nashville region and middle TN. Young and Simpson seemed to have overlapping connections to this region during their lifetimes.

This article is a good quick read that can provide a good bit of info about Young and Simpson.

 http://www.americanhistoricservices.com/uploads/1/0/3/4/10348480/kra_bulletin_spring_2014_v13_1to11_lres.pdf

[jcmcclure]

Thanks, would you mind taking pictures of backside and possibly inlet in stock?  There was a very good question a while back about how exactly to implement this type of latch, and I have only faked it to make it work, having never seen the internals .  They have a very precise feel mechanically, wonder how it's done!

The toggle on the related box looks identical in shape to the Simpson rifle.  I can't remember for sure, but I think the one on the Jacob Young Whitley rifle is slightly different in shape and size?

The release on the Whitley rifle would be the closest to the one seen that Bama has posted. The Woodfork rifle has a hidden release, and the Mansaker rifle has a pushbutton release. Bama's Ridgegill box and the Whitley Rifle have the closest in related release characteristics.

[Gaeckle]

This is great info....should we make it a sticky? Save it as a tutorial sort of thing?

[bgf]

The release on the Whitley rifle would be the closest to the one seen that Bama has posted. The Woodfork rifle has a hidden release, and the Mansaker rifle has a pushbutton release. Bama's Ridgegill box and the Whitley Rifle have the closest in related release characteristics.

Definitely the Ridgill and Whitley rifles have the most similar release mechanisms.  My point was related to the shape of the toggle itself.  I looked up a photo of the Whitley rifle and confirmed my recollection that it was shaped differently from the one here, whereas the one on the "related"(possibly David Young ?) is exact same form as the Ridgill.  Not necessarily significant, just jumped out at me.

[bama]

This is just a few of my observations on the similarities of Thomas Simpson and Jacob Young, these are just observations and open for discussion if you would like to make a comment.

There are many similarities in the above patch boxes but there are also many differences in them. The patch box on Mel's Simpson dated 1791 looks very similar to the patch box on my Simpson that is dated 1803 although similar in looks and style they are two different castings. Simpson did use the same type plunger that extends through the butt plate on both rifles and both patch boxes extend through the butt plate. The button for the release is different on both rifles. The way he attached the release spring is different on both rifles. The way the door and door hinge were made are the same on both boxes and the way the door was attached to the box is the same.  When looking at the 1791 box and the 1803 box side by side it is easy to see that they were made by the same hand but as many of us do we make slight changes in our designs on every rifle. One of the biggest differences is the flower on the finial. On the finial of the 1791 box he use the typical 4 petal flower design but on the 1803 box he added what I call a cock's comb type of detail, Simpson also used this detail on the forward end of the side plate and the end of the toe plate.

I have never had the pleasure of holding the Whitley or Woodfork rifles by Jacob Young so I can not speak about their release mechanisms of his patch boxes on these rifles. In looking at the pictures of these two rifles you can definitely see that if nothing else Jacob was influenced by Thomas Simpson but I feel that there had to be a closer relationship between these two very talented gun smiths. I hope someday this is proven.

In looking at the patch boxes on these two rifles you can see that Jacob extended the ends of them through the butt plate typical to the two Simpson patch boxes. It appears also the door and door hinge construction appear to be the same and probably attached to the patch box in the same manor.

On the 1791 patch box by Simpson the star pattern around the mounting screws was created by using a stamp. On the 1803 patch box the star pattern is engraved. On the Whitley and Woodfork rifles Jacob used stamps to create his star pattern. Young's engraving style on these two rifle's also has a Simpson feel to me in his use of delicate vine type scrolls. One of the major differences that I see between the two smiths is the number of screws used to attach the patch boxes. Simpson used 5 screws and Young used 7. This may be due to a thickness in material by both smiths or just a belt and suspenders type of personality  on Young's part. I do know that the 1803 box is a fairly thick casting that would not deflect very easily. I do not know if the Young boxes are casting's or sheet.

I hope to get a chance to study the young rifles a little closer sometime, it would be a fascinating study.

[jcmcclure]

This is just a few of my observations on the similarities of Thomas Simpson and Jacob Young, these are just observations and open for discussion if you would like to make a comment.

There are many similarities in the above patch boxes but there are also many differences in them. The patch box on Mel's Simpson dated 1791 looks very similar to the patch box on my Simpson that is dated 1803 although similar in looks and style they are two different castings. Simpson did use the same type plunger that extends through the butt plate on both rifles and both patch boxes extend through the butt plate. The button for the release is different on both rifles. The way he attached the release spring is different on both rifles. The way the door and door hinge were made are the same on both boxes and the way the door was attached to the box is the same.  When looking at the 1791 box and the 1803 box side by side it is easy to see that they were made by the same hand but as many of us do we make slight changes in our designs on every rifle. One of the biggest differences is the flower on the finial. On the finial of the 1791 box he use the typical 4 petal flower design but on the 1803 box he added what I call a cock's comb type of detail, Simpson also used this detail on the forward end of the side plate and the end of the toe plate.

I have never had the pleasure of holding the Whitley or Woodfork rifles by Jacob Young so I can not speak about their release mechanisms of his patch boxes on these rifles. In looking at the pictures of these two rifles you can definitely see that if nothing else Jacob was influenced by Thomas Simpson but I feel that there had to be a closer relationship between these two very talented gun smiths. I hope someday this is proven.

In looking at the patch boxes on these two rifles you can see that Jacob extended the ends of them through the butt plate typical to the two Simpson patch boxes. It appears also the door and door hinge construction appear to be the same and probably attached to the patch box in the same manor.

On the 1791 patch box by Simpson the star pattern around the mounting screws was created by using a stamp. On the 1803 patch box the star pattern is engraved. On the Whitley and Woodfork rifles Jacob used stamps to create his star pattern. Young's engraving style on these two rifle's also has a Simpson feel to me in his use of delicate vine type scrolls. One of the major differences that I see between the two smiths is the number of screws used to attach the patch boxes. Simpson used 5 screws and Young used 7. This may be due to a thickness in material by both smiths or just a belt and suspenders type of personality  on Young's part. I do know that the 1803 box is a fairly thick casting that would not deflect very easily. I do not know if the Young boxes are casting's or sheet.

I hope to get a chance to study the young rifles a little closer sometime, it would be a fascinating study.

They are castings. Young like Simpson cast all his hardware. While document would settle the issue, most feel there is/was a master apprentice type relationship. They certainly knew each other and according to records they lived in the same counties most of time while both were still living. They severed on several juries together while they lives in Robertson Co TN.

It has been a number of years since I have been around the Whitley rifle and I find I'm starting to forget a few details. When your not around it everyday anymore you just loose those small details.

The Whitley rifle is most likely the earliest of the know Young rifles, and box features are most similar to Simpsons boxes verses the later rifles. All kinds of stuff out there we would still like to learn about these two.

[bgf]

Just to add a little variety into the mix, the mansker rifle always reminds me of the rifle attributed to Jacob Crider which not only has a silver plaque in Latin on the barrel ("J.C.FECIT.1809") but in style, furniture, and ornamentation reminds me of Simpson, though later than the mansker.  Ivey #155.  I looked back at it today and ivey points out that the patchbox on that rifle is also cut into the buttplate, although it is a different pattern and not captured lid (although release button is on top side plate, just above where one would be for captured lid...).  Some say Rowan County NC, others Botetourt or Rockbridge county VA.  No reason it might not be both or neither....

I agree with the premise that TS and JY had some connection and proximity, but to me their architectures and styles seem so consistently different that it's hard to believe Jacob was apprenticed solely to Simpson if at all. 

[n stephenson]

Bama, Thanks for posting, Casey , thanks for your input as well. Both Simpson and Young are favorites of mine, for one thing they lived and worked close to where I live. I will always love the traditional SMRs But, with more research coming to light all the time about the Cumberland school builders , I have really been studying them . My next rifle that I am building for myself , will be a Cumberland school rifle.  Thanks Nate

[bama]

Nate I love what is becoming known as the Cumberland School. We all owe a big thanks to Mel for his research on these two gunsmiths.

Casey I appreciate your input on this also.

bfg, you are probably right since no documentation can be found the supports the apprentice speculation. I see the young Jacob Young being associated with Simpson through the relationship of Simpson and Jacob's father. I can just see a young Jacob becoming enamored with gunsmithing through visiting Simpson's shop and being an inquisitive and talented young man. I know I have been influenced by all of the gunsmith's I have taken classes from and I have carried some of that teaching into my own building style. So I can see Thomas giving some instruction to the young Jacob and him using that to develop into his own building style. Who knows, but it is fun to think about.