Thomas Simpson Captured Lid Patch Box photo's and related patch boxes

[bgf]

Bama,

Don't let me spoil that image.  William Young almost certainly knew Thomas Simpson and I think probably taught Jacob and his other sons himself, but Simpson was obviously a "big name" in those parts.  With the Mansker, he probably set the standard for workmanship and ornamentation.  On the other hand, William Whitley picked a rifle from Jacob Young, who would have been a relative upstart if not known previously on his own or his family's reputation.

My main reluctance on the apprenticeship idea is that Jacob's rifle closest in period to Simpson's is in a radically different style on most counts, where it seems like an apprentice would start out closest to his mentor and gradually develop his own style.  In fact, I would argue that the later JY rifles are closer to Simpson in manner of ornamentation than the Whitley.  All that said, it isn't unlikely that the families cooperated on castings, stamps, and other components and labor.

I'm probably out of my mind for thinking this, but the JC rifle to which I referred is more along the lines of what I would expect to see from a formal apprentice of Thomas Simpson.  So, nothing but speculation on my part, either...I just think all these storylines converge a generation earlier than usually depicted.

[WElliott]

To add to the mix - this is the patchbox on a flint rifle signed by George Long, who worked in White County on the Caney Creek tributary of the Cumberland River.

[Majorjoel]

I regret that there are no close up pictures of the patchbox on this rifle made by Jacob Young, but it can be zoomed in a bit.   I find this piece to be one of his very best!!
http://www.kellykinzleantiques.com/long-rifle-by-jacob-young.html

[jcmcclure]

I regret that there are no close up pictures of the patchbox on this rifle made by Jacob Young, but it can be zoomed in a bit.   I find this piece to be one of his very best!!
http://www.kellykinzleantiques.com/long-rifle-by-jacob-young.html

There are some good photos out there, but I am not sure that I have any. That is an interesting rifle and that is the only of the known rifles with a brass box that has no engraving on the brass, the silver is the the only engraved portion. It really sett he the whole box off.

[bgf]

To add to the mix - this is the patchbox on a flint rifle signed by George Long, who worked in White County on the Caney Creek tributary of the Cumberland River.

Yes!

Also, the (signed) S. Crain rifle (Noble v.1, p. 122), which has captured lid box with heart pierced finial.  Isn't that rifle thought to be from White county also, now?

[bama]

Majorjoel, here is a little closer picture of the J young patch box on the New Orleans rifle and a group photo of the 3 Young rifles together. Sorry about the glare, I took these photo's at the CLA show a few years ago.

[Mike Brooks]

Those rifles were behind glass at the CLA? They must be really sumpin'.

I have never seen these TN guns before, they relate well to the Lexington guns to a certain extent.

Come to really consider it, they relate far better to NC guns with the flower finial. Any of these fellas come over the mountains after being trained in NC?

[bama]

Mike go to the link that Casey provided. It takes you to a KRA bulletin about Jacob Young  and Thomas Simpson written by Mel Hankla that explains about their background.

[Mike Brooks]

Mike go to the link that Casey provided. It takes you to a KRA bulletin about Jacob Young  and Thomas Simpson written by Mel Hankla that explains about their background.

Great article. My GGGGG grandfather "Squire Tongs" hung out with some of those folks mentioned. His name was John Cox and is listed as a gunmaker and blacksmith in Shelby Gallien's book KY Rifles.
 I've got loads of interesting stories about him and his son if anyone is interested. I'd start a new thread I suppose.

[greybeard]

Mike. I would look foreward to reading about that history. Bob

[bgf]

Those rifles were behind glass at the CLA? They must be really sumpin'.

I have never seen these TN guns before, they relate well to the Lexington guns to a certain extent.

Come to really consider it, they relate far better to NC guns with the flower finial. Any of these fellas come over the mountains after being trained in NC?

Most of these guns have been classified variously over the years.  At least part of the problem is geographic and political.


 Tennessee became a state in 1796.  Until a survey in roughly 1779, some of the northern part was considered Virginia and  the rest North Carolina.  When the boundary between Virginia (Kentucky) with North Carolina (Tennessee) was extended, what is now Tennessee became entirely officially part of North Carolina (not without some resistance and drama, however), although the boundary was disputed vigorously for decades in particulars, and I can find references where it could be argued that Kentucky refers to parts of Tennessee as well.

The settlement of the over mountain region before the (end of) Revolution was officially illegal, but Virginia and to some extent North Carolina at least tolerated it if not encouraged it.  One method that made it possible was that both states used a mechanism of creating counties where the westernmost (roughly) incorporated all the state's granted land westward.  As the area became a regular county, another county to the west became the super sized county.  So, a person could conceivably have been born in what is now Tennessee but was then a county in Virginia.  He might have been a resident of one or more  counties in Virginia, the same in North Carolina, and the same in Tennessee after statehood (as original counties were divided) and yet never moved. And they often moved, also:).

This is a somewhat simplistic version, but it may help to illustrate one way how gunmakers in Tennessee may be correctly but incompletely and unhelpfully attributed to a county in Virginia or North Carolina if records are minimal.  I think there are still surprises awaiting.

For example, Thomas Simson is potentially documented in Rowan County, North Carolina, but that county was a catch-all for parts west at one point.  Was Simpson really in modern day area of RC,NC (unlikely) or was he in one of the areas west of there, including Tennessee, and if so, which part! 

[Swampwalker]

A belated thank you to Bama for showing the catch mechanism - that is extremely helpful!