Author Topic: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle  (Read 5841 times)

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« on: September 18, 2017, 06:51:58 PM »
Aspen Shade has some good stuff on consignment right now, but I keep looking at the second rifle (from the top) shown at this link:

http://www.aspenshadeltd.com/inventory_consign.html

(I don't think it's right to steal his photos to post them here?)

He or the owner (since it's on consignment) offer up a "tenuous" Neihart possibility.  I see this attribution as more than tenuous; I see it as non-existent.  I don't mean this with any malice or ill-will, I'm looking at it solely as a diehard aficionado of NH Co. rifles.

I've spent a lot of time looking at NH Co. pieces and a lot of time researching - as best as I'm able - the guys who were making them.  I don't know if there are any other real NH Co. obsessives reading this, but if you are...

am I the only one that thinks this is obviously John Young?  I mean, I didn't even think twice about it, just on a 'gut' level.  BTW I'm talking about the elder John Young.

Opinions very welcome.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 06:55:37 PM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Offline jdm

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2017, 12:02:37 AM »
I 'd have to rule out  Rupp or Kuntz . I don't think Moll, but maybe.  The trigger guard without the front  stud is  something the  Young  family did a lot.  Other than that I'm not seeing it as a Young. Not the type of lock bolt  plate you often see on one of his guns. Are you seeing something in the carving that makes you think Young ?

 On second look the engraving on the patch box lid looks similar to his.  I know it sounds like I'm hedging my bets but you've got me thinking.
JIM

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2017, 12:23:32 AM »
Take a look at the earliest of the John Young rifles; the one that is *probably* John Sr, very elaborate, has been photographed to death.  It was part of the Lehigh Valley president's display and is on the disc, has also been in the 1750-1850 book and others.

Stock looks to be to the same pattern, definitely not Neihart and certainly not any of the other usual suspects.  Furnishings are very similar, definitely Young in my book - his buttplates in particular are fairly distinctive and different than the 'other guys.'  Likewise with the guards, though to a lesser extent.  And the carving and engraving are what really stand out.  I'm looking beyond the overall designs themselves and more at the actual execution and the manner in which the designs were executed.  His carving specifically is very crisp and of a more refined 'textbook' quality, much like a professional engraver would carve wood, which is actually the opposite of what I see in pretty much everyone else in the region.

It looks to me like John Young making a more "standard" Lehigh, but with his unique signature.
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2017, 07:36:10 PM »
I patched this together and hopefully nobody gets p-o'd about copyright issues since I'm simply trying to illustrate a point here and initiate discussion.  I'm not a professional photo editor so excuse the sub-par patchwork!

I genuinely don't see how anyone could argue that these weren't made in the same shop, if not by the same guy.  Furthermore if you compare the better quality/larger size photos from Aspen Shade website to the photos of the signed John Young rifle on the 2010 KRA Lehigh Disc (which hopefully everyone owns!), you can see better detail of the carving and engraving, and while the overall designs may be different, there are FAR too many details of the execution to view them as anything but by the same hand.  Added to that, Neihart's carving and engraving looks much different regardless of design.



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Offline jdm

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2017, 02:37:19 AM »
Alright Eric, You've won me over . The carving  certainly  has the same flow . Young style  trigger guard  without the foreword stud . The lock bolt plates are similar although not a full  brass  plate that  you see on a lot of his work.
I can't tell if there is a wear plate . Young is known for those long plates that  go from the trigger guard to the rear ramrod thimble.

The Young family, Henry, John, John Jr. and even Peter to a lesser extent remind me of Kuntz.  These guys kind of did there own thing. They didn't always stay within the bounds of the school.  They weren't afraid to take chances with style or decoration.
JIM

Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2017, 05:30:09 AM »
Great comments and observations. A wonderful dialogue. Thanks for sharing.
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2017, 12:31:51 AM »
I think the Young family has the potential to be one of the more interesting gunsmithing families in NH county, probably comparable to the Molls.  I have not "dug into" them, however, as I have with the Molls.  They certainly worked within a unique style that seems reminiscent of NH county but yet not reliant upon the Christian's Spring - Neihart - Moll triangle which seems to have been the most influential in the region, stylistically. 

The founder of the workshop at Easton would appear to be Henry Young (the elder) but I do not believe he was professionally trained as a gunsmith.  He was always noted as a locksmith.  I do periodically come across a modern reference to him listed as a gunsmith during a specific war-years tax list (Julia auctions, probably relying upon Ron Gabels old white paper), but if in fact a documented notation, was likely due to war necessity and I personally have not been able to find this list first-hand.  Possibly it is repetitively repeated after mention in one of the county history books, which I have found to be unreliable and undocumented (of course nothing was in the 19th century when they were written, based largely on oral traditions).  For example, Jacob Berlin (Issac Berlin's brother) was always listed as a blacksmith, but for a short period during the war he was noted as being involved in gun production, only to be listed as a blacksmith once more after the war.  I believe the real gunsmiths in the Young family were John Sr., John Jr. and a younger (no pun intended) Henery Young who I think was another son of John Sr.  I'd like to find a really detailed genealogy of this family, not based on the old sometimes-inaccurate county history books but documented with first hand references to tax lists, warrants etc.  It might help to straighten all of them out in my mind.  I think I'll have to dig more deeply into them sometime soon!

When you consider that the carving work in particular upon the KRA disc John Young rifle is extremely professional in nature, as is the carving upon the Aspen Shade rifle which I am positive is also a Young rifle, and you also consider the extremely professional nature of the carving upon the two Isaac Berlin rifles assumed to have been made in Easton as well, it raises some very interesting questions.  Here you have at least two (Berlin and Young Sr. (assumed Sr., although could be Jr.)) very accomplished gun stockers in Easton, but no indication to my way of thinking as to who taught them.  It *appears* that both men, in the same area, may have been taught by someone who might have had a professional European guild background to some extent.  Yet, Abraham Berlin (Isaac's father) was not a gunsmith, or at the least, has not to my knowledge ever been referenced as one in any first-hand document.  Henry Young was always noted as a locksmith, which may explain the subsequent Youngs fine abilities with metal work and engraving, but does not explain the extremely fine ability in carving.

???

I think I officially may have a fever, and the only prescription is more Young(Jung) investigation!

I'm pretty sure I have some notes found in various tax lists etc. from my time spent investigating the microfilmed NH Co. records, but I'm going to have to take the time to dig them all out and go through them; that's a job and a half, let me tell you.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 12:33:54 AM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2017, 12:34:20 AM »
I think the Young family has the potential to be one of the more interesting gunsmithing families in NH county, probably comparable to the Molls.  I have not "dug into" them, however, as I have with the Molls.  They certainly worked within a unique style that seems reminiscent of NH county but yet not reliant upon the Christian's Spring - Neihart - Moll triangle which seems to have been the most influential in the region, stylistically. 

The founder of the workshop at Easton would appear to be Henry Young (the elder) but I do not believe he was professionally trained as a gunsmith.  He was always noted as a locksmith.  I do periodically come across a modern reference to him listed as a gunsmith during a specific war-years tax list (Julia auctions, probably relying upon Ron Gabels old white paper), but if in fact a documented notation, was likely due to war necessity and I personally have not been able to find this list first-hand.  Possibly it is repetitively repeated after mention in one of the county history books, which I have found to be unreliable and undocumented (of course nothing was in the 19th century when they were written, based largely on oral traditions).  For example, Jacob Berlin (Issac Berlin's brother) was always listed as a blacksmith, but for a short period during the war he was noted as being involved in gun production, only to be listed as a blacksmith once more after the war.  I believe the real gunsmiths in the Young family were John Sr., John Jr. and a younger (no pun intended) Henery Young who I think was another son of John Sr.  I'd like to find a really detailed genealogy of this family, not based on the old sometimes-inaccurate county history books but documented with first hand references to tax lists, warrants etc.  It might help to straighten all of them out in my mind.  I think I'll have to dig more deeply into them sometime soon!

When you consider that the carving work in particular upon the KRA disc John Young rifle is extremely professional in nature, as is the carving upon the Aspen Shade rifle which I am positive is also a Young rifle, and you also consider the extremely professional nature of the carving upon the two Isaac Berlin rifles assumed to have been made in Easton as well, it raises some very interesting questions.  Here you have at least two (Berlin and Young Sr. (assumed Sr., although could be Jr.)) very accomplished gun stockers in Easton, but no indication to my way of thinking as to who taught them.  It *appears* that both men, in the same area, may have been taught by someone who might have had a professional European guild background to some extent.  Yet, Abraham Berlin (Isaac's father) was not a gunsmith, or at the least, has not to my knowledge ever been referenced as one in any first-hand document.  Henry Young was always noted as a locksmith, which may explain the subsequent Youngs fine abilities with metal work and engraving, but does not explain the extremely fine ability in carving.

???

I think I officially may have a fever, and the only prescription is more Young(Jung) investigation!

I'm pretty sure I have some notes regarding the Youngs found in various tax lists etc. from my time spent investigating the microfilmed NH Co. records, but I'm going to have to take the time to dig them all out and go through them; that's a job and a half, let me tell you.
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Offline jdm

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 03:15:39 AM »
 A younger Henry, now that's  interesting. I don't remember reading about A  Henry being born to John and his wife but it's been awhile sense I read all that. I have a rifle made by one of  the Youngs that I always felt was made by Henry. The only problem was it looks to be a early 19th century gun. Henry Sr. I think died in 1785 0r so   and my gun is not that early. Although I would like it to be. My gun has similarities to the Henry Young pictured in Behold the Longrifle and one of the early K.R.A. books. The only signed one I've seen. That would explain that question for me.
The earliest reference I've seen about Henry Sr. being a gunsmith was published by the Pennsylvania German Society in 1906. I'm sure you saw it in the K.R.A. book. You are correct  in the fact that it was just oral related history with no documentation. The author did also state that John Young was a master engraver and did work for Isaac Berlin on swords that he made. 
AS a side note Henry Derringer I believe lerned his trade a the shop of the Youngs in Easton.

I hope you do find the time to do more research on this family I believe they are an important part of or Longrifle history.   Jim
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 05:10:31 AM »
Yes, there was definitely a 'young' Henry Young and I'm about 99.9% positive that all of the signed Henry Young pieces were made by this young Henry, not the old Henry who was a locksmith and who did indeed die in 1785.

I saw a brief genealogy at one point but I no longer remember where I saw it; it did note a Henry that was a son of one of the Johns, or something like that.  It sure makes a lot more sense, too.

James Julia had two wonderful signed Henry Young pieces in the Spring 2014 auction, both which look early 19th century.  One is a spectacular pill-lock rifle and one a left-hand pistol.
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2017, 04:06:41 PM »
Trying to straighten this family out is like trying to herd cats!  I'm already pulling my hair out.

I cleared up the Henry issue.  I can say wth certainty that Henry Young Sr. had a son also named Henry (Jr.). He was a brother of Johannes Young/John Sr.  Old Henry died in 1785, there was subsequently some issues with the estate and there were at least two inquests, one as late as 1793.  In that document, John is noted as the eldest son (he was born about 1751) and there are 11 children referenced.  Three of them, including Henry, were under the age of 14 at that point (1793) as a guardian was appointed.  So, while I don't know exactly how old Henry Jr. was at that point, he couldn't have been born any earlier than @ 1779, which fits perfectly with every signed Henry Young piece that I have seen as none of them really look any earlier than @ 1800.

Still working on some other issues revolving around the multiple Johns.  Also trying to determine how early John Sr. may have been referenced as a gunsmith.  Given his age, it couldn't have been any earlier than @ 1770 or so.  I can't pinpoint him on the big NH Co. 1772 tax list, though.  Plus, there is a confusing issue with Henry on that tax list I have not sorted out as yet.

Edit - I think I've sorted it out.  Just to add more confusion, we've got Henry Young the locksmith of Easton and there was also a George Henry Young - who apparently simply used the name Henry - in Plainfield twp up above Easton who was always a farmer, also with a large family and also with a son named John.  This second Henry Young died within 2 years of the locksmith Henry Young.  I think over the years, gun researchers have been melding these two families together.  Furthermore, I believe the non-gunsmith John (son of farmer George Henry) ALSO lived in Easton and died about 10 years after the two father/son gunsmiths (who both died in 1813).

Everyone confused yet?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 11:01:48 PM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Offline VP

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2017, 03:04:42 AM »
Eric,

Confused, maybe a little but with each post your presenting a clearer picture. I love to see these confusing genealogies worked out. Please keep us informed. Don't think it's not enjoyed.

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Offline jdm

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 04:11:35 AM »
Eric,
 Thank you for taking the  time to sort this out .Their are those of us out here that care.
I remember reading  where one of the Young's ,  John or Henry can't remember who was tried for treason. Then I read where they took the oath to the U.S. and were  assigned to gather up weapons for the Revolution . Two different family's . Makes more sense now.
JIM

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 06:15:41 AM »
You are correct, but that was yet ANOTHER John Young.  He was a resident of Philadelphia, was declared a traitor in 1779.  What is confusing there is that he has a warrant for approx. 850-900 acres up in Forks twp which was seized, so his name and the declaration of traitor along with the property seizure appear in Northampton Co. records.  It took me a little bit to make the connection but the info is also in the PA Archives series and it is noted that he was a resident of Philly, wife named Anne.

Also, during approximately this same period of time (1750-1800) there was yet another John Young over in Bethlehem township, a farmer in the 'Drylands.'  He, too, had some business dealings in the Plainfield/Forks/Moore township area, and I think some researchers may have been tagging this family group as part of the Easton locksmith/gunsmith Youngs.  There is no relation.

Bob L and I have been conversing and he reminded me of the whole mess found in many of the old county histories regarding Johnston Smith, John Young and/or Adam Foulke.  This is 1775-1780 period, apparently a large quantity of arms acquired and sent to VA.  There are a few different versions of this story and I know I have some concrete info I turned up years ago but now I have to re-find it.  So, thus far, I think it is likely that John Sr. was probably trained by his father Henry (Sr.) as a locksmith, saw the gunsmithing opportunities during the War years and went at it, then subsequently set up a fairly prolific gunsmithing operation in Easton after the War wherein eventually he trained or worked with his younger brother Henry Jr., his son John Jr. as well as other family members I have not tracked down as yet - Peter, David and Jacob at the least.

Did Henry Sr., always referenced as a locksmith, engage in gun work?  No way to determine at the moment.  Bob has a way of reminding me of the existence of what I should probably term "knowledgeable humility!"
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 05:36:39 PM »
Hi Eric,  Anything you come across in this process relating to Samuel States would be of interest as well.  Thanks for your time and effort.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Aspen Shade Northampton Co. rifle
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 07:57:56 PM »
Julia auction has a rifle attributed to a John Young of Easton. I'm not following this thread too closely so don't know if related.

https://jamesdjulia.com/?s=Flintlock+young&post_type=page_catalog&sort=catalog_aucID
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