English locks

[RockLock92]

At what point did English locks like the Bailes, Durs Egg and the Classic Ketland first start showing up in the Colonies/ United States? I know the round faced locks like the L&R Queen Ann are typically associated with The F&I and pre revolutionary war period, but I've also read that the Bailes style locks began showing up in the 1770's. My understanding was that the English locks with the flat face and the "tit" were early 19th century. I'm trying to find a lock for a pistol build that wouldn't be out of place in the 1780's or 90's and Im kind of partial to the Chambers Classic Ketland (aka late Ketland) or the L&R Bailes, but I don't want to build a frankengun either.

Thanks,
Brad

[smart dog]

Hi,
Flat faced locks on English guns started to become popular on higher quality guns in the 1760s.  However, that usually did not include the bells and whistles such as roller frizzens, "waterproof" pans, and such.  Those became popular in the late 1770s and early 1780s.  There were some early roller frizzens in the 1760s and early 1770s by William Bailes (not the Bailes the lock is named for) and John Twigg but they were not common.  The L&R "Bailes" lock, which is also called the small "Manton" lock is appropriate for guns during the late 1770s through the early 19th century.  The Chamber's late Ketland is more of a 1780s and later lock.  These locks would start showing up in the colonies during the late 1780s after the Rev War was over and imports from England began to flow again.

dave

[Bob Roller]

These locks with all the "bells and whistles"and ignoring the cost conscious are true works of
mechanical art.Their main purpose seemed to be to obstruct the percussion or detonating
systems that were being seen.The Chambers Late Ketland and the L&R Small Manton are
examples of the simpler forms of these locks. I made about 125 of the Bailes/Manton style
locks in the late 70's and earl 80's for a German shop that was making a Boutete copy for
target shooters.These locks all had 3 screw bridles and linked mainsprings which the Brits
called an "Anti Friction Swivel". Not the easiest thing to make but it's noticeably faster.
I have made only ONE direct contact mainspring since 1970 which was the year I went to
the linked style entirely.

Bob Roller

[rich pierce]

It often seems that in general, export locks bing used here lagged behind what was in style in Europe.  But any analysis of what locks were used when on American guns is complicated by the fact that so few American rifles can be accurately dated.  One can always use an earlier lock, but a later lock pretty much locks in the earliest possible date for a gun.

[Scota4570]

I have a question regarding how to properly lay out the stock for these locks.

http://www.lr-rpl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=62:late-english-flint-lock-model-900-1000-900dt-1000dt&catid=38:lar-locks&Itemid=61

They have a curve on the bottom of the plate.  I would intuitively think that the curve would follow the bottom of the stock's curve where it transistions to the butstock/ grip area.  When I try to do that I must tilt the plate to an extreme uphill angle so that the triggers can be close enought to the sear bar.  That looks goofie to me.  The pan should be level with the barrel?

Do I need special triggers with extra high levers?

If I move the lock and barrel foreward it works mechanically but the curve in the plate is over a straight part of the stock.  That looks wrong to me too. 

What am I missing.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Scota4570:  here's a few examples of this lock, in all cases, in Hawken rifles.  I hope it is of some use to you.

[Scota4570]

Thanks!

I guess what looks off to me is about me.  It did not seem "right" that way. 

I am currently drafting plans for a scratchbuild.   I basically am doing a "paper dolls" type of thing with the 1:1 Track photos of locks and other parts.  I'll try it like your photos and see how it compares. 

Thanks again,

Scot

[RockLock92]

Thanks everyone for the information. I had no idea this style of locks went back that far on European arms. How much tuning work do the Chambers locks require? I've messed with a few L&R locks but have no real experience with Chambers except for the Siler kit that my dad has partially assembled

[Daryl]

From what I've seen, you inlet a Chambers lock, install a flint & shoot.

[Bob Roller]

From what I've seen, you inlet a Chambers lock, install a flint & shoot.

X2 on that. In my professional as well as my "PERfeshunul" opinion,
the Chambers Late Ketland is the best production lock now available.

Bob Roller

[Waksupi]

Thanks everyone for the information. I had no idea this style of locks went back that far on European arms. How much tuning work do the Chambers locks require? I've messed with a few L&R locks but have no real experience with Chambers except for the Siler kit that my dad has partially assembled

As others say, they work well right from the box. I know myself and several other builders who put in a couple hours fine tuning.

[snrub47]

In Taylor's post above the third rifle has a big bow trigger guard, where can I buy one like it???

[JCKelly]

Mr. RockLock - what style of pistol do you plan?

Is it not true that ethnic German gunsmiths in Pennsylvania tended to use either imported German locks, or made their own in a Germanic style?

As opposed to the American southeast, or New England, where trade with England was more common?

Experts here, no doubt, will agree/disagree/fill in the details

[Don Stith]

In Taylor's post above the third rifle has a big bow trigger guard, where can I buy one like it???

The Mold for that guard was copied from an original J&S Hawken fullstock owned by a friend and an original J&S Hawken half stock once owned by me/ I made the pattern used for the mold

 It is the proper guard for a pre 1840 Hawken.  If Pete ever gets fully back in business, I will have some more cast
  They may be available some where since I don't  actually own the mold.  Perhaps Taylor can tell us where he got his.

[Joe S.]

Dixon's has that style hawken guard,I used one on the hawken full stock I'm working on.I was over there last week,still had a few on hand as well.

[snrub47]

Thanks, I will call Dixon"s Monday.....

[RockLock92]

Mr. RockLock - what style of pistol do you plan?

Is it not true that ethnic German gunsmiths in Pennsylvania tended to use either imported German locks, or made their own in a Germanic style?

As opposed to the American southeast, or New England, where trade with England was more common?

Experts here, no doubt, will agree/disagree/fill in the details

I’m honestly not sure. I saw a few holster pistols on Clay Smith’s website that looked pretty nice. They have the lock style I like and I like the overall looks of them so most likely I’ll try to do something along similar lines ( though I’m a novice so it won’t be even close to his pistols)

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

That third Hawken rifle is one of Don Stith's parts sets.  The set came with a super hard superlative piece of sugar maple.  Unfortunately, it was lost in a fire.  I salvaged the parts that could be found...have the guard and butt plate, and plan to build another Hawken around the parts.  Dave Rase inlet the barrel in a new piece of wood for me.