A Question of groups

[Sharpsman]

Whether shooting ML or a modern rifle the below photo shows my 'shooting rest'! I shoot southpaw; right hand goes forward to a comfortable distance toward the muzzle and the hand is placed ATOP the rolled up shooting mat which has a 2" piece of rolled aluminum in the middle to keep the roll from collapsing. I grip the rifle with a firm grasp and the butt-plate is fitted into position against my shoulder and neck; I bring the comb of the stock UP against my cheek.....not my cheek DOWN to the wood! I use no rear stock rest; just shoot off the shoulder and IMO this helps to control the recoil....such as it is shooting blackpowder! I make a strong effort to watch the front sight and to call the shot; IMO this helps to establish follow-through which is much needed in shooting slow or fast projectiles! Over the years I have found that this method delivers the most consistent accuracy when shooting from a bench. I find no difference in zero when shooting offhand or sitting!

Untitled by Sharps Man, on Flickr

[Maven]

The only difference in procedure that I use when bench testing ML v. cartridge guns is to make sure the forearm of the ML's is placed in the same position on the front steady rest as it is when I shoot them offhand.  I.e., as I'm right handed, I place the ML on the rest where my left hand would normally be.




P.S.  I have PDF's of ML targets, but the software doesn't support them.

[Darkhorse]

Really good to see you open to advice. You'll do well. Just keep working on it.

With a flintlock I like to concentrate even harder on the front sight. It's what I always concentrate on, but with a flintlock I almost go into a trance. It takes my mind completely off the explosion going off in front of my face and before I know it the shot is over with. Most of the time i'm not even aware of the the flash or any delay in ignition. Just burn that front sight into the target. Whether paper or flesh.

Just burn that front sight into the target! Very good description. When I was a little younger and healthier I was big into Martial Arts. I even ran my own school for 5 years. The longer I trained the better my concentration got. I was always mediocre at pool but all of a sudden I became a contender. Same thing for shooting flintlocks. Ignore the flash and burn that front sight into the target. I privately called it the "Zen of the flintlock".

[OldMtnMan]

I was also into martial arts when I was younger. Maybe that's where I got it from without realizing it.

[hanshi]

I started martial arts as a kid and am still training - not like I use to when I had my own school - but must make big allowances for the back problems and the ra.

Getting back to the subject, I got the same result in my concentration.  I've killed several deer with "snap shots" where the rifle seemed to shoulder and fire in a split second of it's own accord.  That "zen" state is what I call "being in the zone".

[Robby]

MooShoo, no mindedness, Hai!
Robby

[thecapgunkid]

For me the key word whether bench or offhand has been...consistency...

Put all these comments into one big ball, with all their good advice and value, and it will all be for naught if using inconsistent technique or loading.  That's likely why it's so hard

Capgun

[hanshi]

Correct, Robby.  However, I think the word you're looking for is "mushin".  IIRC. mooshoo is a chinese dish made from pork. 

[longcruise]

Whether shooting ML or a modern rifle the below photo shows my 'shooting rest'! I shoot southpaw; right hand goes forward to a comfortable distance toward the muzzle and the hand is placed ATOP the rolled up shooting mat which has a 2" piece of rolled aluminum in the middle to keep the roll from collapsing. I grip the rifle with a firm grasp and the butt-plate is fitted into position against my shoulder and neck; I bring the comb of the stock UP against my cheek.....not my cheek DOWN to the wood! I use no rear stock rest; just shoot off the shoulder and IMO this helps to control the recoil....such as it is shooting blackpowder! I make a strong effort to watch the front sight and to call the shot; IMO this helps to establish follow-through which is much needed in shooting slow or fast projectiles! Over the years I have found that this method delivers the most consistent accuracy when shooting from a bench. I find no difference in zero when shooting offhand or sitting!

Untitled by Sharps Man, on Flickr

I saw a homeless guy with that exact same rest!  Who knew those guys are into shooting?

[Darkhorse]

This is my bench setup for shooting at home. The bench is portable, I shoot off it one day and saw off it the next.   The top is heavy, reinforced and stays in my shop, once I get all 4 legs level it's steady enough to shoot tiny groups. I'm thankful to have a home range.
I've never found putting my hand under the stock or not using a rear bag to be any advantage. Funny how what floats my boat leaves other's aground.

[OldMtnMan]

99.9% of my shooting is offhand. I never enjoyed bench shooting.

[Marcruger]

Regarding sight alignment, I was once told, "When you can describe what the top corners of the front sight look like, then you are concentrating enough on it."  That came from a member of the Marine Corps' Pistol Team. 

[OldMtnMan]

Whatever little trick get's you to really focus on the front sight is worthwhile.

[hanshi]

I built this little shooting bench years ago and designed it to be light and portable.  Nevertheless, I've done much of my best shooting from it and see no need for anything heavier.  The legs quickly screw on & off and the whole thing easily fits in a car's trunk.  I even made a net "brass catcher - for my flintlock, you understand -
 That also works well for modern handguns; it snaps right on the bench.  The benches at the big and very heavy in comparison; much too heavy for me to even think about moving.  Bigger, stronger guys do sometimes move them a little.  A lot of my shooting is done sitting in a chair to replicate the way I hunt in the bush.  I can still get down to the ground, with effort, but getting back up takes me time and MUCH effort.  My portable canvas chair is an angel.

[smylee grouch]

Every one has their methods and madness that works for them. I like a fairly heavy load in my hunting guns mainly because they shoot the best with a beefy charge. The rate of twist and load combo dictate that and I get a flatter trajectory with those loads. It depends a lot on the critter your hunting and the country your in. The only drawback for me is that on some close shots you don't get as much penetration but you do get a lot of bullet upset. That will really do them in if placed right which is the most important aspect no matter how fast or slow your bullet is going IMHO.

[OldMtnMan]

As I said in the other thread. A heavy hunting load will over expand. It's worse at close range.

I use lighter loads and have the discipline to just take close shots.

[Sharpsman]

As I said in the other thread. A heavy hunting load will over expand. It's worse at close range.

I use lighter loads and have the discipline to just take close shots.

Expansion would depend upon the alloy of the round ball! 1-50 alloy...yep probably a good bit! 1-12 alloy....not so much but enough!

[OldMtnMan]

I just use pure lead. So, I guess we can call it soft.

[hudson]

At Friendship I noticed sighting had changed probably a change in lot number of powder. When home decided some bench work in order to find/correct the problem. The rifle in question a box locks with close to three thousand rounds through it. This rifle is fired off hand with the offhand at the trigger guard. When at the bench for some reason I decided to rest it on the forearm, at fifty yards patterns grapefruit size. After a long bit of head scratching I realized I normally rest it near the end if the barrel, Groups tightened back to normal, sights adjusted, something  to consider along with all the others.

[Hungry Horse]

I think something needs to be taken into consideration that may be escaping some of us. When I started shooting muzzleloaders almost all of them were 1 in 48” twist no matter what caliber they were. When I got my old CVA Mountain rifle that was 1 in 66” I thought I had died and gone to heaven. But it didn’t stop there. Soon barrels were being made in 1 in 72” twist which although they shoot well, require a bigger charge of powder. About the same time the barrel companies changed the steel they were using, and started making barrels lighter, which made for more felt recoil. But, it also pushes the envelope when it comes to pressure in those thin barrels. The end result if the barrel doesn’t rupture is the light barrel with the big ball, and big charge, kicks the snot out of you. Which makes your groups grow progressively larger, because you are anticipating the recoil.

 Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

Back in 1972, the Zouave .58's were 72:" twist. I recrowned mine to allow nice tight fitting patched round balls to be loaded. 
After some load development, it was very accurate, making many 1 1/2" to 2" groups at 100 yards off the bags. 120gr. 2f GOEX
was it's best round ball load with .022" denim and a .575" ball - yes, that was tight in the .003" deep rifling, but - VERY accurate.

[OldMtnMan]

There's nothing wrong with a 1-48 twist as long as it's a deep groove in Hawken style guns. After all, the original Hawkens were 1-48 twist.

[hanshi]

There's nothing wrong with a 1-48 twist as long as it's a deep groove in Hawken style guns. After all, the original Hawkens were 1-48 twist.

Agreed!  Groove depth is the key.

[hudson]

Hungry Horse my experience with twist matches yours exactly.

[Hungry Horse]

The improved accuracy big charges deliver in slow twist barrels, tempt us to exceed safe loading practices, and often lead to recoil fear. I found this out shooting my slow twist .50 cal. And then shooting my .36 cal. Big flinch with the .50, no flinch with the .36, it didn’t take a genius to figure out what was wrong.

 Hungry Horse