Author Topic: The Whale's Rifle  (Read 4700 times)

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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The Whale's Rifle
« on: November 03, 2017, 06:24:13 PM »
 This is the first Museum piece added and well as the first authentic "Chiefs" (quality) rifle in the Museum library.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=46438.0

ALR Museum Committee
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 06:24:30 PM by Hurricane ( of Virginia) »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: The Whale's Rifle
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2017, 06:32:21 PM »
No picture of the patch box?
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: The Whale's Rifle
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2017, 08:22:40 PM »
Mike
I was in a hurry when I posted those photos. I think several failed to upload. Will check when I get back home.
Dennis
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Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: The Whale's Rifle
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2017, 08:37:40 PM »
 :o :o :o... Is this different gun than the Berryman Compton (Giles Co. TN) "whale" rifle ...???? .... any connection ..??

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: The Whale's Rifle
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2017, 01:48:31 AM »
:o :o :o... Is this different gun than the Berryman Compton (Giles Co. TN) "whale" rifle ...???? .... any connection ..??

Hopefully Travis Brown or Jim Parker can answer your question. I don't know.
Dennis
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: The Whale's Rifle
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2017, 01:50:28 AM »
No picture of the patch box?
Mike,
I do not have a photo of the box but Hurricane thinks there was one. I checked the photos that were sent to me and I got a duplicate with 7 photos so the box may be in one of those. Hopefully I will have more to post soon.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

oakridge

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Re: The Whale's Rifle
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2017, 02:28:04 AM »
:o :o :o... Is this different gun than the Berryman Compton (Giles Co. TN) "whale" rifle ...???? .... any connection ..??

Different gun. No relation.

Offline bama

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Re: The Whale's Rifle
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2017, 02:40:20 AM »
Travis and I plan to build a copy of this rifle at some point. I have pictures of the box if Travis doesn't
Jim Parker

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Offline Howard

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Re: The Whale's Rifle
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2017, 06:45:44 PM »
Over in Texas on display I saw a rifle with the same patchbox design. If I remember correct the building that it is in we had to take a ferry across a bay to get to it.  This building is dedicated to early pioneers of Texas. Next to it is a WWII ship museum.

Offline Howard

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Re: The Whale's Rifle
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2017, 07:34:43 PM »
Looking through my photos I found that the place where this same box can be seen is at San  Jacinto Battleground. The box on the rifle there is identical but the rifle has a pistol grip feature to it.

Offline PPatch

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Re: The Whale's Rifle
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2017, 03:54:06 AM »
Thanks Jim, Travis and you also Dennis - a really nice example of a Chiefs rifle, I be ol' Whale loved it, bragged on it. A welcome addition to the ALR Library.

Regards that patchbox design: When you need to be absolutely sure your patchbox isn't ever coming off use 24 screws to fasten it.  ;)

dave
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Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Re: The Whale's Rifle
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2017, 07:58:56 PM »
Patchbox added.
Hurricane
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 12:37:12 AM by Hurricane ( of Virginia) »

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: The Whale's Rifle
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2017, 03:51:11 AM »
 ??? ??? ???.... Who was the gunsmith who built this fine rifle ..? ... please post specs..... and what year built ..... Thanx ... !!!

54ball

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Re: The Whale's Rifle
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2017, 07:15:02 AM »
??? ??? ???.... Who was the gunsmith who built this fine rifle ..? ... please post specs..... and what year built ..... Thanx ... !!!

 Fiddler,this is my opinion of the origin of Whales Rifle.

 A past ranger told me that the rifle may have been built at the Harpers Ferry Arsenal. There in fact may be a Harpers Ferry connection.....I'll explain this with my theory based on history and what Jim Parker and I saw.

 I believe this Rifle is a Derringer Trade Rifle. I have seen a few Derringers with that same lazy comb line and similar guard. Derringer was the primary supplier maybe even exclusive supplier for the US Indian Trading Factor System until this system was changed or privatized in the 1820s....

 My theory on this rifle is that it started as a Derriner Trade Rifle.

 Harpers Ferry Connection???

 Since this was a Presidential Award Rifle the Silver work and Presidential Patchbox may have been done at Harpers Ferry. Or......this Special work was done by a smith and was inspected at Harpers Ferry. Or....
 The rifle is not a Derringer and was built by a Smith and inspected at Harpers Ferry. Or ....
 The rifle was imdeed built there.
 This may explain the rumored attribution to Harpers Ferry...

 As said personally I believe it is a Derringer with special stuff done to it, possibly inspected at HF.

 The rifle now....

 Jim feels the rifle is period to the 18 teens early 1820s....
 It was converted to percussion and still wears a Joseph Goucher percussion lock (fits but not that good) albeit converted to flint (engraviving is evident under the feather spring)....likely in the 1950s-60s....before 1963 when it was donated to the park.
 The tang mortise shows evidence of a short tang....much shorter than the tang now.....
 So it has been re breeched.... likely in conversion to percussion or percussion back to flint.
 Was the barrel changed? Maybe...Maybe not?
 Depending on how the rifle was breeched to percussion....it may have been too short when it was restored back to flint....
 Odd feature on Barrel....
 Where a signature would be is an anomaly in the top flat. Holding it in the light you think something is there but it's not there....That's only place like that on the top flat.
 There is no evidence of preening or filing that I can tell.....It's just like....Well, something was there but it's not there now...Odd......It raises some questions....BTW the barrel does have a slight swamp.

 All in all....the stock and most if not all the features on it are original and period. The only thing that may be a replacement is the front triggerguard fluer finial.

 Wow! It still is an important part of out history. A Presidential Award rifle to an American Indian Soldier at a Battle that made Andrew Jackson a Major General....placing him in command at New Orleans and eventually in the WhiteHouse. Too this battle secured the South in 1814. This battle took place on March 26, breaking the Redsticks. In May the British landed and built Fort Prospect on the Appalachicola River in Spanish Florida. They had a company of British Marines commanded by Major Nichols and a stand of 20,000 arms. Their mission, to train and arms the Indians Tribes against the United States.
 The Resticks were always poorly armed yet they turned away 2 American Armies in the Winter of 1814. One from Tennessee (Jackson) and one from Georgia (Floyd). The Georgians were effectively taken out of the War after Callibee Creek.

What many do not know is Jacksons victory at the Horseshoe, was his second attempt. He was turned back and nearly chased back to Fort Strother after the Battles of Emukfau and Enotichopco. He returned in March with overwhelming force.....Imagine for a moment if the timing had been different...Imagine the Resticks having that stand of 20,000 arms....trained by British Marines.
 These are my opinions on it .......
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 07:20:52 AM by 54ball »