Author Topic: Edge of pan and end of barrel  (Read 902 times)

Offline Fiftyfour

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Edge of pan and end of barrel
« on: November 14, 2017, 01:23:42 AM »
Do any of you install your locks so that the back edge of the pan is forward of the breech end of the barrel?  I believe that to align the back edge of the pan
With the breech end of the barrel , the breech plug would need to be notched for the touch hole.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2017, 01:28:24 AM »
Itís practically impossible with todayís breechplugs.  I donít bother and many originals donít line up either.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2017, 01:38:51 AM »
Do any of you install your locks so that the back edge of the pan is forward of the breech end of the barrel?

Yes, you just about have to with today's breech plug lengths.

I believe that to align the back edge of the pan With the breech end of the barrel , the breech plug would need to be notched for the touch hole.

I agree.

-Ron
Experience is something you get right after you needed it.

Offline ddoyle

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2017, 02:19:32 AM »
I asked this question a couple years ago- overwhelming opinion was that it did not matter because there are historical examples of fitted and not fittled locks/breech plugs.  If your  "planning" a rifle why not plan the breeching to fit the lock?. If you feel the same maybe do not notch the plug but instead order/fit the breech plug to match the distance from the center of the pan to the back of the fence (assuming it is  somewhere in the 1/2 inchish range, considering non- UNC threads gives more options)

if you move the pan forward of the barrel end it does have an impact on the architecture, minor and per above considered insignifigant but if you map an American Long RIlfe as a 3D watershed and model where the water wants to flow it does make a difference where the 'downhill' starts.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2017, 03:42:13 AM »
Do any of you install your locks so that the back edge of the pan is forward of the breech end of the barrel?  I believe that to align the back edge of the pan
With the breech end of the barrel , the breech plug would need to be notched for the touch hole.

Don't matter but I like to put the fence at the end of the barrel.

Dan
No, sir, I don't give 'em $#*!, I just tell the truth and they think it's $#*!. Harry S Truman

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2017, 03:43:25 AM »
Most of the time.

Dan
No, sir, I don't give 'em $#*!, I just tell the truth and they think it's $#*!. Harry S Truman

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2017, 03:45:04 AM »
No trick to put the touch hole as far south as you want.  You could make a patent breech with an integral tang.  It could also  be accomplished with a plug that fit over the barrel that had male threads, like a pie cap.  One could even make a hooked female breech that had the notch in the tag but no barrel shaped extension.

I would not notch a plug.  I would make a cavity in the plug and fit a CVA style liner that properly fit through the threads and made a seal against a shoulder.

OR, just go with it as we do it today? Historically, they did some breech plugs that were pretty questionable.  I would not copy poor work. 

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2017, 03:49:27 AM »
Do any of you install your locks so that the back edge of the pan is forward of the breech end of the barrel?  I believe that to align the back edge of the pan
With the breech end of the barrel , the breech plug would need to be notched for the touch hole.

Don't matter but I like to put the fence at the end of the barrel.

Dan

Several ways to do it.
Dan



No, sir, I don't give 'em $#*!, I just tell the truth and they think it's $#*!. Harry S Truman

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2017, 04:00:47 PM »
Be careful what you conclude from the pictures of old guns in books

  Many of them are reconversions or even replacement locks.
 The pan fence at the back edge of barrel is certainly the best looking option.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2017, 04:42:14 PM »
I have never really cared where the fence ends up. The old ones ended up everywhere. They were also using plugs as short as 3/8" in many cases.
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Offline Dan Fruth

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2017, 07:16:10 PM »
I was taught by my teacher Jack Haugh to always put the fence even with the end of the barrel. But I don't do that anymore for the simple reason of keeping breech plug threads intact and keeping a good seal ate the face of the plug....It doesn't affect the look of the rifle at all, in  my opinion, but sure keeps fowling from contacting the breech plug threads.

Offline Black Hand

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2017, 07:31:39 PM »
Do any of you install your locks so that the back edge of the pan is forward of the breech end of the barrel?  I believe that to align the back edge of the pan
With the breech end of the barrel , the breech plug would need to be notched for the touch hole.
Align the center of the pan with the center of the touch-hole which is (usually) just forward of the breechplug face...

Offline ddoyle

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2017, 10:25:03 PM »
Dan, Well, now you have done it. I Spent some time looking at Jack's fowlers and now I am fully converted.  Ultimately the only excuse for not doing it Jack's way is not wanting to/being able  to spend the time/money to breech the barrel FOR the lock or purposely trying to replicate a rifle with mismatched parts. (no shame in either but it is always good to know when we are deviating from best practice).   Sure there is some limit to how short a distance between pan center and fence can be accomadated but if anything is going to get bodged then I'd vote for grinding the pan and/or offsetting the vent from pan center to move things instead of destroying the gas seal at the breech.  An off center vent is an honest fitting tweak that anyone can see and judge. A ground vent is a hidden bodge.

This pic from the blog kind of shows where Architecture would be impacted by installing an overtly long breech plug ;) Saying it is acceptable is one thing but pretending it does not matter kind of does a disservice to the preservation of 'best practice' architecture.



« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 10:44:58 PM by ddoyle »

Offline 54ball

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2017, 12:25:11 AM »
 Honestly, I think the above photo is an extreme example. For a gun like that sure....take the effort to line up the fence.
 Since most American Rifles and guns are somewhat straigh through that area and less "humped; in my opinion lining up the fence is less of an issue, on say a Lancaster or  later Golden Age Rifle.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 12:26:10 AM by 54ball »
"These Americans had riflemen-they could hit a man at 200 paces distance. We came to dread them far more than the regular Continentals. At Kings Mountain they destoyed us."

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Offline ddoyle

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2017, 03:32:50 AM »
Completely agree the whole needs to be considered when deciding what is right for what the builder wants to accomplish.
 

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2017, 06:20:29 PM »
I have never really cared where the fence ends up. The old ones ended up everywhere. They were also using plugs as short as 3/8" in many cases.

Absolutely. Antique locks are all over the place. No worries.

Sometimes because of stock architecture you want to push the lock back as far as you can for good wrist conformation, then you might want to resort to modifying the plug face, etc.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 06:22:08 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline BJH

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2017, 06:46:01 PM »
Don, and John Getz breached all their barrel 1/2 inch deep, allowing for decent fence to barrel end line up. I see no problem in carefully shortening breech plugs to 33/64 , and rebreeching the barrel being sure to get a good fit at the inner breech shoulder and the tang. The extra 1/64 in. Is to allow for fitting. I do not like the fragile projecting finger of wood at the top of the lock mortise, that is the result of the breech plug being longer. BJH
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Offline BOB HILL

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2017, 11:00:19 PM »
My feelings were always as BJH states above. I like my fence at the breech if I'm able. Many of your breechplugs use to come 5/8" long and many barrels breeched 5/8". I always cut them to 1/2" or slightly shorter. It does take some care to get a good seal and it wasn't a task I enjoyed. When Rice was gearing up to build barrels they said they were going to use a 1/2" breech. This made me very happy, to say the least. If you are using a swamped barrel and the breech is longer than 1/2" you must adjust and refit your plug before inletting your barrel. As has already been stated by others, this is just a personal preference and you can line it up as you please. You can find it both ways in antique and contemparary work. Hope this did not over complicate the answer. For fear of this I started to respond several times and didn't.    Bob
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Offline Dan Fruth

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2017, 11:39:35 PM »
Larger locks, like the big german lock in the photo, or large English locks the fence can be set equal with the breech and place the vent just in front of the plug, if the plug is 1/2". Smaller locks, like Silars and such, will put the vent into the breech plug threads if you line up the fence with the end of the barrel. Haugh would file a deep groove in the plug that flarred out to toward the edges of the plug, then polish. I never remember him shortening barrels and plugs to avoid this. Many originals used this same approach.....So I guess it is preference, but I prefer to place the vent just in front of the plug face, and the lock falls where it does....My 2cents.

Online burnt

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2017, 01:09:20 AM »
When I was first taught it was "back of pan to edge of barrel and notch the breechplug with a triangular file, the theory was
    1: it looked good and 2: ignition was at the back of the charge.
I now locate center of touch hole so that the back edge of the cone of the liner is at the breech face and the lock is located center of pan to center of touch hole back of pan falls wherever it is.

Kevin
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Offline Keb

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Re: Edge of pan and end of barrel
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2017, 04:55:54 PM »
The more you move the lock forward the more you move the trigger, guard & lock mortise forward. I learned to line the fence up with the breech and I'll stick with that.