Author Topic: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle  (Read 35696 times)

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #75 on: November 29, 2017, 12:52:50 AM »
When it comes to the engraved decoration on 19, I'm don't really think it's productive to look for exact period copies or representations of what we see on 19.  If - of course a big 'if' - 19 is indeed Paxinosa's rifle, and if the engraved forms are meant to be in some way symbolic and possessive of meaning to him, I think it would be more likely that he would have described what he would prefer to see in the way of decoration as opposed to possessing visual representations of it that he could have then illustrated to Albrecht.  Furthermore, let's keep in mind that if indeed these engraved representations are meant to be symbolic and personal to Paxinosa, what we have here are decorative elements designed and engraved by a white, educated European for a non-European educated native.  Big cultural bridge, there.

In other words, I would not particularly expect to find carbon copies of these designs somewhere else.  The sales pitch for the representations is really more reliant upon what each element of the design is intended to represent rather than each being a copy of a pre-existing sketch or drawing etc.
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Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #76 on: November 29, 2017, 12:58:40 AM »
I didn't say anything about expecting "exact" or "carbon copies" of this panther image in the eighteenth century. But the only evidence for how eighteenth-century men (such as Albrecht) would have represented a panther is the range of ways that (other) eighteenth-century men represented panthers. How a twentieth-century logo represents it is irrelevant and, as I said, may raise more questions than offer answers.

The engraving on the rifle and the "modern" Shawnee panther are very, very similar--in the spread of the legs, even in the dip of the head. Such a similarity, I think, needs to be explained. It could be explained in many ways.

But if this particular way of representing a panther is only a twentieth-century phenomenon--and I don't know that it is, just asking--and it also appears, perhaps uniquely, on this eighteenth-century rifle ... well, as I say, I would think one would need to explain that. One explanation is that the modern Shawnee panther derives from this eighteenth-century rifle. I doubt this is the case. So how else might one explain it?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 01:08:41 AM by spgordon »
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Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2017, 01:17:56 AM »
Let me give a better example. Just a thought experiment. The sentences below should not be taken as a fact.

Let's say that research found that eighteenth-century Shawnees nearly always depicted their tribal symbol, the panther, by means of a frontal view. And that nearly all panthers in drawings by white Pennsylvanians, by contrast, depicted the panther by means of a side view.

Wouldn't that diminish the likelihood that this particular panther was produced for a Shawnee? (Not eliminate it, but make it less likely?) And increase the likelihood that this particular panther was produced, say, for a white Pennsylvanian?

« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 01:20:20 AM by spgordon »
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Online rich pierce

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #78 on: November 29, 2017, 01:42:31 AM »
Scott, it’s natural to think it likely that if a motif was specifically requested to be engraved on an item for a customer, it would need to be in a form that they would find it pleasing or at least recognizable.

Regardless of when the current panther representation was chosen by the Shawnee for their emblem, it would not be surprising if it had been in use for centuries.

It would be terrific if the proposed story and associations are very close to reality.

Keep in mind, however, that we’ve not yet satisfactorily resolves the origin and meaning of the Lehigh “head”. Some have wondered if the figure engraved on the buttplate is in any way related. Not that it makes sense if it is a Liberty cap.
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Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #79 on: November 29, 2017, 01:50:40 AM »
Scott, it’s natural to think it likely that if a motif was specifically requested to be engraved on an item for a customer, it would need to be in a form that they would find it pleasing or at least recognizable.

Regardless of when the current panther representation was chosen by the Shawnee for their emblem, it would not be surprising if it had been in use for centuries.

I entirely agree. And that's what good research would reveal--what image the Shawnees thought pleasing or have historically used to represent their tribal sign, the panther. Then we would have something to discuss. The twentieth-century Shawnee logo does not contribute to answering that question.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 01:52:41 AM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
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And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
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Offline sqrldog

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #80 on: November 29, 2017, 02:15:47 AM »
Jyst read a little on Tecumsu (Tecmtha) that he belonge to the gens of the medicine panther. So a medicine panther was impotant at least that far back. Don't know what a medice panther looks like, but it appears to have been important to the Shawnees.

Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #81 on: November 29, 2017, 02:24:15 AM »
I've been reading, too. The pamphlet about the two rifles declares "The Panther was Paxinosa's totem." There is no source for this and I have not found anything to confirm this. I believe this is one of many assertions in the pamphlet that are wholly invented (or, at best, misconstrued from something).

What I have found suggests that people often confuse Paxinosa with Puckeshinwa, whose son was the famous Tecumseh (whose name means "Panther across the Sky"). It is this other Shawnee family associated with the panther.

The Shawnees had 12 clans, only one of which had the panther as its totem. Was Paxinosa part of this clan? No evidence suggests so.

Not surprising that twentieth-century Shawnees would emphasize the panther in their tribal logo, given that Tecumseh is the most famous Shawnee.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 02:27:56 AM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
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And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
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Offline Arcturus

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #82 on: November 29, 2017, 02:37:14 AM »
You beat me to it, Scott.  Was going to mention that Tecumseh's name translates roughly as "panther passing across the sky", supposedly in reference to a bright shooting star seen in the sky the night he was born.
Jerry

Online Robert Wolfe

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #83 on: November 29, 2017, 03:36:59 AM »
I open the "Antique Gun Collecting" forum first thing every day in the usually vain hope that there will be a thread like this one. Thanks to all who have participated and shared their views. This is a great thread.
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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #84 on: November 29, 2017, 04:28:02 PM »
I second Robert Wolfe`s comment. This really has been a very good thread. I know very little , on the subject , but am getting a good lesson on it. Thanks to everyone who has contributed . This thread proves that civil debate can happen , when respect is shown from all parties . Keep it coming !! Nate

Offline Dan Fruth

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #85 on: November 29, 2017, 04:47:22 PM »
For what its worth, the box cavity on "The woodsrunner" rifle was done like RCA 19 also.
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Online rich pierce

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #86 on: November 29, 2017, 05:03:34 PM »
Dan- good observation!

I’m going to break protocol and post the same thing twice.

Ok now let’s look at this gun which is in RCA volume 2. I forget the number. It is currently on consignment at Aspen Shade. Keep in mind early builders probably had buckets of castings from Europe. But the tang carving plus the buttplate choice are interesting features. The comb is quite different and obviously the patchbox cover as well. From RCA I recall the guard has vestigial acanthus finials










I WOULD like to know what the patchbox cavity looks like.


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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #87 on: November 29, 2017, 05:29:11 PM »
The acorn finial is a recent restoration, the original finial was probably more continental, the sceptic in my wonders if this isn't when the panther was added..... ;) Why would anyone with even a remote understanding of early rifles put an acorn finial on this trigger guard? ::)
  I have always suspected the buttplate was French as well, although I think I was poo-pooed on that idea...I don't recall why. The screw seems to pierce the engraved figure, not likely done unless it's a reused trigger guard from an old French trade gun. I haven't looked at #19 in RCA I lately, but doesn't the figure seem to be wearing a helmet? ....could be another gun I'm thinking of.
 all of the above is irrelevant I guess and doesn't help connect the gun to Albrecht.
I'd like to retract part of my previous post. I have now actually looked at the gun again in RCA I instead of depended on my feeble memory. Mainly to clarify that the figure on the buttplate WAS purposefully engraved around the screw. It seems to be done in an "Colonial American style" and doesn't have the sophistication of European engraving. The dude has really funky arms and a stick gun. The head piece, what ever it is is interesting. To me it looks like it may be one of those funky "Liberty Caps" you see on Lehigh guns. I still believe this buttplate may be a reused and modified French fusil detrait buttplate.
 Also I was told some  time ago that the acorn was a restoration, now I wonder how much of the front finial was replaced, I'm thinking possibly the whole thing. The engraving doesn't go with the rest of the gun, to my eye anyway.
 This is all very interesting, but I don't think any of this information detracts from the fact these are both very important early American guns, especially since they both seem to be made by the same hand.
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Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #88 on: November 29, 2017, 05:40:28 PM »
To me the first important way towards understanding if this was possibly owned by Paxinos, which would be very hard to prove regardless, would be to see if you can even confirm that a Panther was a symbol he used. Paxinos was born in the Minisink/Munsee division of the Delaware not Shawnee, but his group later integrated with the later and historical sources do list him as a Shawnee chief.

I'm not very well informed on Shawnee history outside of the war of 1812 era, but my understanding was the Panther that is currently part of the Eastern Shawnee emblem is representative of Tecumseh (one of the translations of his name is "Panther Across The Sky"). Tecumseh's father was a lower level Shawnee war chief from the Panther clan. Even if this was a symbol Paxinos used, that certainly does not prove it was his gun as it could have been owned by any member of a the Panther clan, another Native American group who used the symbol, another individual whose name meant some variety of Panther, etc.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 05:48:49 PM by The Rambling Historian »
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Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #89 on: November 29, 2017, 05:59:05 PM »
To me the first important way towards understanding if this was possibly owned by Paxinos, which would be very hard to prove regardless, would be to see if you can even confirm that a Panther was a symbol he used. Paxinos was born in the Minisink/Munsee division of the Delaware not Shawnee, but his group later integrated with the later and historical sources do list him as a Shawnee chief.

I'm not very well informed on Shawnee history outside of the war of 1812 era, but my understanding was the Panther that is currently part of the Eastern Shawnee emblem is representative of Tecumseh (one of the translations of his name is "Panther Across The Sky"). Tecumseh's father was a lower level Shawnee war chief from the Panther clan. Even if this was a symbol Paxinos used, that certainly does not prove it was his gun as it could have been owned by any member of a the Panther clan, another Native American group who used the symbol, another individual whose name meant some variety of Panther, etc.

Exactly. And, as I wrote above: "people often confuse Paxinosa with Puckeshinwa," who was Tecumseh's father. So any association of Paxinosa with the panther may have derived from this confusion--and the pamphlet just reproduced the confusion.

If so, there is no reason that a panther engraving points to this rifle being Paxinosa's.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 10:18:24 PM by spgordon »
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Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #90 on: January 05, 2018, 09:31:40 PM »


 
Saw this online today: a panther mold made in the Moravian community of Salem, NC, sometime between 1786-1833.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
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And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
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Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #91 on: January 06, 2018, 12:53:08 AM »
Very interesting!
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #92 on: January 06, 2018, 01:48:36 AM »


 
Saw this online today: a panther mold made in the Moravian community of Salem, NC, sometime between 1786-1833.

Is there a backstory here?  How is it known that it originated in Salem - are there markings upon the other side?  How is the dating derived?  And...  what was this used for?  Casting pewter?  Clay slip?  Cookies?  I'd like to know more - it's interesting!
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Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #93 on: January 06, 2018, 02:05:46 AM »
It was posted on Old Salem’s Facebook page, with this short note: “This ceramic panther mold was made by Rudolph Crist II sometime between 1786-1833 in Salem. It was most likely used to make tiles in the shape of a panther.” I don’t know anything more than that.
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Offline blienemann

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #94 on: January 07, 2018, 07:11:57 AM »
Great find, Scott - and timely!

This Rudolph Christ was the same young man who apprenticed to learn the gunstocking trade with Valentin Beck in 1772.  See other thread on the Salem school program and book project. 

Here the panther is rendered in a realistic fashion, rather than the folk art seen elsewhere.  I think Christ died in 1833, but was working with Aust as potter at least by 1776, so I wonder how they date this piece? 

I think Gordon Barlow had a scarf pin or similar with a griffin engraved upon it.  We wonder if there were source books for the art used by these craftsmen?  Or tradition in the armsmaking industry for generations?  These animals and other items are common on local flags in Germany - perhaps ideas came from back home?

Bob

Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #95 on: January 07, 2018, 03:47:00 PM »
I would think that, if one wanted to understand this panther mold, it would be crucial to widen one's view beyond anything related to the gunmaking trade. A good starting question would be: what other molds, or perhaps animal molds in particular, were produced by the Moravian potters in Wachovia?

I did not post this because I thought it had any relation whatsoever to the early Northampton County rifle with the panther engraving. I posted it because the long thread above suggested that, to understand that rifle with its engraving, one would need to know how panthers were portrayed in the eighteenth century more generally. This was the first example that I happened upon. We now have (possibly) two data points--from which it is impossible to conclude anything at all about that question.

This mold does further the suggestion, though, that panthers were a common animal to portray--and to write about. As I mentioned, they show up frequently in early American novels.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 03:47:51 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline vanu

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2018, 12:05:00 AM »
Another source for this type of iconography are period engraved powder horns. There are quite a few that have the "rampant lion" in coat of arms, but also many of the vernacular engraved horns have numerous animals, both real and imagined, several have leopards...possibly indicating America. The "panther" on RCA 19 is very stylized and could even be European. A quick scan through Jim Dresslar's 1996 book on engraved horns reveals quite a menagerie of academic and folk renditions of animals. Just another period source to follow up on Scott's point...(horns are interesting in that many are dated and can be traced to an individual, colony or region).

Bruce

Offline 120RIR

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #97 on: August 29, 2018, 11:29:15 PM »
Reviving and adding to this lengthy discussion.  As some of you may be aware, the most recent owner of the RCA 19 "sister rifle", Ernie Cowan, passed away recently.  Being the owner of one of his five bench copies and having started this topic late last year after having picked it from him, I feel it's time to post a few photos of the original.  Ernie said I could do what I wished with the photos but being well aware of the controversy and out of respect I didn't feel it was proper at the time to post the photos to the general public.  Maybe I'm being callous by doing this now but being a career historian/archaeologist I also feel strongly that this rifle should be made available for closer study. Unfortunately, I have no idea what is to become of it, but hopefully these few photos will provide just a little more information and lead to some additional opinions and conclusions.  Sorry for the mediocre photos.  They were taken in Ernie's shop in poor lighting conditions...and I'm not much of a photographer.












Online rich pierce

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #98 on: August 29, 2018, 11:31:49 PM »
Thanks so much.  Great, early rifle.
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Offline 120RIR

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #99 on: September 04, 2018, 02:54:38 AM »
As Eric Kettenburg suggested some ways back in this exchange, the wood could be a European walnut which would be problematic for this rifle being of American origin (although some kind of relationship between the short rifle and RCA 19 appears to be certain).  I certainly don't think it's black walnut as the copy's maker contended but I'd be interested in other opinions.