Sliding wooden patchbox questions

[Justin]

When shaping a sliding wooden patchbox, should the width of it (when looking at the rifle's butt from the side like the banner at the top of the site) be consistent for the entire length (except the point, obviously)? Or is it acceptable if the rear of it is a little wider than the nose?

Right now I have mine rough shaped and the butt end of the box lid is a little wider than the nose end. It's less than 1/4 inch wider.

Should I make sure the edges are parallel or is it ok to have a bit of an angle there so the lid doesn't break up the flow of the rifle's butt?



By the way, I think I am going to make it a little thinner overall but the question still stands. I also plan to make it sit much flatter against the stock.

[P.Bigham]

Looks better tapered.  A little. Wider at back

[BJH]

The lid must taper for both asthetic and mechanical reasons. The dovetailed part of the lid must taper from front to back this allows you to fit the lid so that when it is all the way home it's tight, almost no movement. The top of the lid must taper for appearance. At this point to my eye your lid is still a bit too wide, mine usually taper about 1/8" or so in the straight sided portion. The dove tailed portion tapers around 3/32 or so. I usually make two lid blanks, one a bit bigger. Originally I did this for goof room, now it's just a spare. BJH

[Mike Brooks]

Monstrously  big and clunky, study originals. Maybe buy some books...."Recreating the American Longrifle" is good. maybe you could even take a peak at my tutorial....or not.....

[Chris in Washington]

upload gifs online
This is the patchbox that I'm doing.  It's about 1.5 inches at the tail and tappers to 1 5/16, 5" long and about 3/8" thick at the tail end.   

Chris

[ScottH]

Mike Brooks recently suggested looking at Jim Kibler's work. He has many examples on his web site. That should give you some ideas on how to proceed.

[Justin]

Mike, you missed the part where I said "rough shaped". Try reading a little more carefully next time before throwing out your un-requested feedback on an unfinished part of someone's build.

To the others that responded helpfully: Thanks, that is the kind of info I was looking for. I don't have an original rifle on hand and until today didn't have a reference with actual measurements (my copy of Recreating the American Longrifle came this evening and I didn't know they had specific measurements in there).

For others reference, that book suggests a patch box lid that is about 1.5 inches at the butt, 3/8 to 5/16 inches thick at the butt, at least 1/4 inch thick at the end of the front dovetail, and 5-6 inches long (the length measurement is for a "typical example").

[Monty59]

Hello Justin,here you can take a look on a few Jeager Rifles I own. I often see patchboxes on contemporary rifles they look to bulky. Better before you make it , study the patchboxes in books from originals.
Regards  Monty

[smart dog]

Hi Justin,
Many original guns had slightly tapered box lids but a few I examined seemed pretty straight. Many originals lost their lids, which were replaced, but the shape of the mortice and the flattened area for the lid on the stock often give clues to the shape of the original.  I taper my lids because they look better with the shape of the stock.  I am not aware of any rule of thumb but generally if my stock is big and boxy, the lid tapers little, if the stock is slim and the butt tapers a lot, so does the lid.

dave 

[n stephenson]

Justin, With the butt profile you have, I would suggest as Dave , that you put a good bit of taper on it . As you can see from the beautiful jaegers the blockier the stock , the more squarish the box lid. I unrestand that you are just "roughing in" now , but Mike Brooks has a good point , 99% of builders , me included , start out making cheekpieces and patchbox lids TOO HUGE!!! When we look at pictures in books ESPECIALLY black and white , they make these features look huge . As Mike stated , when you see some originals in person , it helps bring these things to light.  Keep going !!!  Nate

[Mike Brooks]

Mike, you missed the part where I said "rough shaped". Try reading a little more carefully next time before throwing out your un-requested feedback on an unfinished part of someone's build.

I can pretty easily be less helpful. I'd leave it just like it is. It's absolutely perfect. what is it, about 3" wide?

Seriously now, haven't you seen any originals or correctly shaped contemporary wood boxes? There's pictures all over the net and here. Look at Kibler's site, he's a master at wood patch boxes. Look at his work then transfer that look minus the excellent decoration to what ever that is on the side of your gun.
 The dove tail should taper as well as the upper profile of the box. You can get it open when the wood swells that way, usually. Generally, and it depends on the school, but 1 1/2 wide at the rear tapering to about 1 3/8 will put you in the ball park. About 3/8" thick at the rear tapering to about 1/8" or so is about right as well.
 I'm sure you must have all ready plugged your ears and are saying LA-LA-LA-LA so you don't have to hear what I have to say.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Play nice boys! Justin, Mike's advice come from someone with deep experience and a very good eye for style etc. While he sometimes gives feedback with the bark on, I always feel honored and grateful when he comments on my work. While he will tease he also will tell you the best truth he can offer. Your new book will help as well. while there may be some teasing or over reactions among us from time to time you won't fin a group anywhere that will rally to your need and do everything they can to keep you on the right track, Mike included. Enjoy your build and show us more along the way.... doing that has saved me from many mistakes along the way.

[rich pierce]

Monty, those are some fine looking rifles!  Can you post more over in the Antiques section?

[smart dog]

Hi Justin,
I do not like the large size of your box lid.  To my eye it is overwhelming and distracts from the nice lines of the stock.  Also, Justin, pay attention to any figure in the stock and lid.  A wooden lid with figure can add a lot to the overall look but it can also detract if the direction of the figure is at an odd angle to the rest of the stock.  In the photo below, the simple patchbox lid has figure that nicely compliments the rest of the stock.  In addition, knowing that I would do the wire inlay and that the wood had attractive figure, I opted not to carve the lid just leave it with a simple border.  I also did not want it to be the focus of the space because I want the viewer to notice the wire inlay and beautiful wood surrounding the box.

dave

[Justin]

Justin, With the butt profile you have, I would suggest as Dave , that you put a good bit of taper on it . As you can see from the beautiful jaegers the blockier the stock , the more squarish the box lid. I unrestand that you are just "roughing in" now , but Mike Brooks has a good point , 99% of builders , me included , start out making cheekpieces and patchbox lids TOO HUGE!!! When we look at pictures in books ESPECIALLY black and white , they make these features look huge . As Mike stated , when you see some originals in person , it helps bring these things to light.  Keep going !!!  Nate

Nate, I get that and as you clearly know how to communicate with other humans, you can communicate that information with tact. With Mike's childish delivery method that he seems to pride himself on, it just makes me instantly disregard everything he says even if it does have value.

[Justin]

Oh, and getting back on topic, I did look at photos online and so forth but it's a little tricky to tell just from photos. (I figure that has to be the first obvious step that anyone would take and therefore doesn't even need to be stated, right? Perhaps I'm wrong with some lol)

For example, if I look at this Isaac Haines build on Track of the Wolf, it looks quite square:


However, what I was finding when I was rough shaping mine is that as I was getting to a more square shape from where I started, I didn't like how that shape was aligning with the bottom and top lines of the butt stock. So I stopped removing wood and figured I should ask some more experienced folks before removing any more wood. Hence, the piece is un-finished and has more wood right now than it ultimately will.

I shared the image of my patchbox lid just as a point of reference for what I was talking about. Not to ask "Hey guys does this look good?". When I'm ready for that, I'll post those pictures with that question

[Mike Brooks]

FYI, not that you care what I think anyway, I don't in particular care for the shape of that slider on the TOTW gun. For the most part I'd stay away from using the guns on that site as examples of what original KY's are supposed to look like. Now, please instantly disregard....

[Robby]

I agree with Mike, stick with originals. Maybe the fellow on the Track did his from a reproduction, in which case you are getting an interpretation of an interpretation. Keep looking, chewing and looking some more and it will come to you.
Robby

[Kingsburyarms]

Here is another reference for you - Original:

[smart dog]

Hi Justin,
I'll be blunt, there is nothing Isaac Haines about that gun from TOW and the patchbox is one of the least attractive I have ever seen.  It is too short, angled wrong, and proportions poor.  It cannot be improved by tapering because it is too short.

dave

[iloco]

I have an Isaac Haines rifle that I don't know who built it.  Very well made rifle with some good honest use showing.
 Here are a couple pictures of the patch box which I don't know if correct or not.  Mike and some others may chime in and give their opinion of it. Its what it is is all I know.

[Justin]

Ah, interesting. Now Mike that is actually helpful! Maybe we can talk to each other after all.

Thanks folks, I don't know any better and assumed that was a representative example.

[t.caster]

I know this is your rough shape, but your box looks way too wide for your stock architecture which is slim and tapered.
Also, you should find a piece of wood that has a similar swirly growth ring pattern as you butt stock area, IF POSSIBLE. Or at least something similar. The straight grain you have will look like a replacement piece that is mismatched.
A correlated rule of thumb (I was taught) is to NEVER use a lid that exceeds the figure of the buttsock, such as being a much tighter curl.

Tom C

[Mike Brooks]

Here is another reference for you - Original:

Although a good example of how a box lid should look, but that particular lid is a replacement as well. Cool that the restorer even thought to put worm holes in it eh? Very clever.

[Mike Brooks]

Ah, interesting. Now Mike that is actually helpful! Maybe we can talk to each other after all.

Thanks folks, I don't know any better and assumed that was a representative example.

My delivery may be poor, but you'd probably learn something if you listen. If you were working for me in my shop I would have already bonked you over the head with a woo-woo stick and  sent you out to pull weeds for the day. Btw, most of these other folks here know what they're talking about as well, I'm no brainiac, I just been doing this for too long.
 Something you might consider is tossing that cover out and making something more historically appropriate in style and shape. You might even consider filling the dove tails in the mortise and recutting them so  you can get the proper taper and width....I don't know if you can get what you need with what you have now, or maybe you can. The length your cover should be will be probably 5 1/2" or so give or take a bit. Or you could just go with what you have and make do.  All depends on your skill and how much effort you figure a box cover is worth in the end and what skills you have to make this work.