Author Topic: Sliding wooden patchbox questions  (Read 1569 times)

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2017, 09:33:13 PM »
Thatís the Albrecht rifle, eh, Mike?

Probably at least half the sliding wooden patch boxes on originals are replacements.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2017, 09:41:06 PM »
Thatís the Albrecht rifle, eh, Mike?

Probably at least half the sliding wooden patch boxes on originals are replacements.
Yes I believe it is. I was just looking at it on the KRA disc yesterday. In shumways book it's an old busted up relic missing 1/2 of the stock and various other bits. Now it's a 'real" gun again ::). This is the problem with the work very good restoration guys pose these days. Much of their work is taken for original and can be misleading. I actually preferred the gun as a relic, 'twas a much better study piece in my opinion.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Online Justin

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2017, 10:22:08 PM »
Ah, interesting. Now Mike that is actually helpful! Maybe we can talk to each other after all.

Thanks folks, I don't know any better and assumed that was a representative example.
My delivery may be poor, but you'd probably learn something if you listen. If you were working for me in my shop I would have already bonked you over the head with a woo-woo stick and  sent you out to pull weeds for the day. ;) Btw, most of these other folks here know what they're talking about as well, I'm no brainiac, I just been doing this for too long.
 Something you might consider is tossing that cover out and making something more historically appropriate in style and shape. You might even consider filling the dove tails in the mortise and recutting them so  you can get the proper taper and width....I don't know if you can get what you need with what you have now, or maybe you can. The length your cover should be will be probably 5 1/2" or so give or take a bit. Or you could just go with what you have and make do.  All depends on your skill and how much effort you figure a box cover is worth in the end and what skills you have to make this work.

Mike, I'm sure I would and if I were honest, I would say I do learn from your posts but I think you're doing yourself a bit of a disservice by requiring your audience to read past your lack of tact. When you start your "help" off with an attack, are you surprised others get defensive? I get you're "blunt" and that's your character -- if I were with you in person, it'd probably be a lot easier to hear your comments as physical presence adds a heck of a lot to a conversation and how people interpret what each other is saying.

Anyway... enough of that. I'm not hear to teach anyone communication skills (at least I don't think I should).

I don't have the lid in front of me right now. Part of me is worried I cut it a little too short so I may make a new lid. I keep looking at my picture... It is about half way up the butt. When I measured it last night, it was a little less than 5 1/2" long. My plan for tonight is to try getting it a little more tapered on the tip and therefore, more pointed. It won't be as long as Kingsburyarms's original image, I know that. If that fails, I will make my own from the extra maple the Chambers family sent along with the rifle. No big deal. My stock is not highly figured -- just got basic so I am not too concerned with matching all that.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 10:23:06 PM by Justin »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2017, 10:30:28 PM »
Here is one on a rifle that Ed Wenger made for me. Its a loose copy of an original and I know for sure that the lid was not the original one but this lid is close to what I would expect to see on an original early longrifle.

Photo by Mark Elliott-Mechanicsville VA

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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2017, 10:44:23 PM »
So......I just read your reference to Chambers and an extra piece of maple that they sent with the rifle .   If you go to the Chamber's web site, you can see a number of photos of wood patch boxes on their rifles.  Take a look.

Online Justin

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2017, 12:02:37 AM »
So......I just read your reference to Chambers and an extra piece of maple that they sent with the rifle .   If you go to the Chamber's web site, you can see a number of photos of wood patch boxes on their rifles.  Take a look.

Yes, they have some photos too. I still can't tell if this box lid is square or tapered though (despite the very tip, obviously):


Or are you looking at different pictures that I haven't found? The above is the set of photos for their Isaac Haines kit.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2017, 12:45:16 AM »
Quote
Mike, I'm sure I would and if I were honest, I would say I do learn from your posts but I think you're doing yourself a bit of a disservice by requiring your audience to read past your lack of tact. When you start your "help" off with an attack, are you surprised others get defensive? I get you're "blunt" and that's your character -- if I were with you in person, it'd probably be a lot easier to hear your comments as physical presence adds a heck of a lot to a conversation and how people interpret what each other is saying.

Anyway... enough of that. I'm not hear to teach anyone communication skills (at least I don't think I should).
I could use a different approach like " Ohhhh! That's wonderful! sand a little off the edge and it will be just perfect. You are marvelous and are easily the most talented man to have ever put together a kit, I doubt you're capable of ever making a  mistake. Please tell us all how you manage such terrific work!" There, you wouldn't be offended but you'd have a swelled head and not ever learn a !@*%&@ thing. I could do the  modern communication way,  all gushy touchy feely don't hurt your feelings sort of way if you like, it happens here on a regular basis, but not by me. Generally these days I try not to offer any  comment, but it looks like you needed some help. Don't take my approach personally, I don't even know who you are......
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline smart dog

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2017, 12:49:33 AM »
Hi Mike,
What's a "woo woo stick"?  I think I may have been whupped by one sometime in my life but I am not sure. Is it anything like a cattle prod?

dave
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 12:50:51 AM by smart dog »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2017, 01:07:19 AM »
Hi Mike,
What's a "woo woo stick"?  I think I may have been whupped by one sometime in my life but I am not sure. Is it anything like a cattle prod?

dave
It's  sort of a magical  crooked stick. It's the only way I can get impossible things done on guns when I'm way out of my skills package. I have several, one for every impossible task that I come up against. I usually move it in a counter clockwise direction while I play Beetles music backwards then right at the end whilst I jump up and down on my left foot I shout Mecka lecka high mecka hiney HOOOO! Then everything just sort of jumps together on it's own. I've been thinking of selling some of my spares on the for sale forum, but I'd probably have to ask too much for them.... :P
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Online n stephenson

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2017, 03:14:10 AM »
Hi Mike,
What's a "woo woo stick"?  I think I may have been whupped by one sometime in my life but I am not sure. Is it anything like a cattle prod?

dave
It's  sort of a magical  crooked stick. It's the only way I can get impossible things done on guns when I'm way out of my skills package. I have several, one for every impossible task that I come up against. I usually move it in a counter clockwise direction while I play Beetles music backwards then right at the end whilst I jump up and down on my left foot I shout Mecka lecka high mecka hiney HOOOO! Then everything just sort of jumps together on it's own. I've been thinking of selling some of my spares on the for sale forum, but I'd probably have to ask too much for them.... :P
To HECK! with Justin`s patchbox , we have finally gotten to sum much awaited information on the elusive WOO WOO STICK!!!  Mike,  I don`t want to jump line or anything, but if you aren't in the middle of a BIG book deal or anything , would it be out of line to ask for a peek at one of the sacred sticks? If so, please forgive my ignorance , as I am only seeking to advance in this pursuit. I Remain Your Most Humble and Obedient Servant!   Nate

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2017, 05:24:50 AM »
Justin,

FWIW,
I got a partial scholarship down at the WKU gun-building course back in 2003. Ron Ehlert got it for me. Ever indebted to Ron!
Was building an English fowling piece, and in comes Gary Broomfield.  I asked him if the flat around my lock mortise was Ok, and he said Way (Capital W!)  Way too thick!!

What did I say in return?   ....  "Thank You!" and I meant it from the bottom of my heart.   I was thee to learn.   I am ever so pleased he was honest with me!

Did the same with Mike a bit back, asked him about something, Knowing he would be honest.  He was, and it didn't ruffle my feathers in the least!

I really appreciate honesty, and it is the only way to learn

All the best,

Richard.

Offline Ed Wenger

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2017, 06:10:45 AM »
Justin, I would definitely try to taper your lid some.  If there's enough lip around the edge, you should be able to do it.  Maybe around a 1/16th of an inch off each side at the front, angling to what you have at the back.  Draw some lines on the box and see what you think.  The demsions Mike mentioned will help for thickness.  When viewed from the top, I think boxes look best when they have a pretty good wedge shape, but that's just me.  The front can be very thin.  Wood boxes on Longrifles, like many other attributes, were all over the place, so again, draw some lines and see what looks good.


           Ed

Offline brokenflint

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2017, 06:44:19 AM »
While on the subject of wood boxes and lids, help me out here.  I've got dyslexia here when it comes to layout, even when I look at some originals things don't seem to flow / have a visual appeal to me.  So how do we go about laying out a wood box, where should the butt plate end be positioned ideally and at should the nose point, or does it matter.  It seems the nose points down the nose points up and then the whole thing goes funky.  I also assume different schools will have influence also.   Hope you can understand what i'm asking.

Ed
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2017, 07:50:58 AM »
Iíd study the original maker you admire rather than trying to come up with a rule about wooden boxes. 
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2017, 03:15:55 PM »
Hi Ed,
You ask very good questions.  My response by necessity will be subjective because if you look at originals, the layouts vary a lot, and that also includes brass patchboxes.  You will see some on which the end of the box was more or less centered on the buttplate and the axis of the lid is perpendicular to the buttplate regardless of the shape of the buttstock.  Often those seem a little off center with respect to the shape of the buttstock.  I tend, when possible, to try and center the lid within the lines of the buttstock.  I do that by drawing 3 lines, one for the top of the comb, one for the bottom of the stock, and one for the axis of the lid.  Generally, I want the lines to converge about where the pan is on the lock and the end of the line for the lid centered in the buttplate as closely as possible.  However, all of that requires tweaking depending on the shape of the stock, drop, LOP, etc.

dave     
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Offline Goo

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2017, 03:47:19 PM »
Although a good example of how a box lid should look, but that particular lid is a replacement as well. Cool that the restorer even thought to put worm holes in it eh? Very clever.

Mike , did you make that patch box cover for the restoration?   
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 04:54:01 PM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2017, 04:18:05 PM »
Although a good example of how a box lid should look, but that particular lid is a replacement as well. Cool that the restorer even thought to put worm holes in it eh? Very clever.

Mike , did you make that patch box cover for the restoration?

Good Golly No! Nobody  (including myself) Thinks I have the skills needed to have my hands on a high dollar gun like that!

« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 04:55:15 PM by Ky-Flinter »
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Online Justin

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2017, 07:12:16 PM »
I haven't cut anymore off yet but here is a photo showing more of the butt stock so you can see the general proportions better. I think I will be fine with the length though if I had to do it over again, I would have left a bit more of the tip on so I could have made a longer point like Dennis' example (which I like)


I also drew some lines on the underside of the lid that I plan to use as a starting point. I also transferred lines to the top (not pictured) showing how narrow I can possibly go before the box opening would be visible so I know my extreme points. It seems to me I would not want to take much more off the edges of the lid above the dovetail or I'll risk getting too close to the dovetail.


Does anyone have a shot of the underside of their patch box lid? I'm curious how close yours are to the dovetail.

Offline Ed Wenger

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2017, 04:08:04 AM »
I don't have any photos handy, but what you have there is about as close as I'd feel comfortable with.  I think it'll look a lot better once the nose end is rounded off, and you address the thickness.  Would probably have looked a little better if it could have been tapered more, but it is, what it is, unless you want to plug the dove tails and do a major rework.


            Ed

Offline brokenflint

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2017, 04:21:39 AM »
Justin  look at todays blog, Brian Barker rifle third photo down shows what you may be looking for
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Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2017, 04:01:12 PM »
Guys,

We all make mistakes!  Sometimes I think that I am the foremost maker of OOPS!  On this little Lehigh gun I cut the patchbox hole in the butt stock early in the stocking job.  When the stock was more refined the angle of the hole did not line up well,  not centered well at the wrist end.  It looked stupid.  So to recover I made the lid top at an angle to the dovetail to bring it into alignment.  However this fix eliminated the lid width taper and made the lid appear to be too wide!

One of these days I may get it right, but not on this one.  Woodwork is certainly my weakness!

Jim


Offline smallpatch

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2017, 06:46:23 PM »
I'm no pro, but mine have evolved over the last few years, with my mentor telling me to remove more wood.
Here's my last one, and I know Mr Martin will say again..... remove wood, till you're scared, then remove a little more.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 11:01:07 PM by smallpatch »
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Online Justin

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2017, 12:16:12 AM »
Justin  look at todays blog, Brian Barker rifle third photo down shows what you may be looking for

Where do I find this blog? That feels like a dumb question but I am not seeing it.

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2017, 12:20:03 AM »
contemporarymakers.blogspot.com
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 12:20:38 AM by smallpatch »
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Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Sliding wooden patchbox questions
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2017, 12:23:04 AM »