Something NOT to do

[n stephenson]

I recently had a friend show me a rifle he came across in trade . I don`t know who made it , and , if I did I wouldn't post it . NOT the intent of this post ! I am posting this as an example of what, poor layout can cause. The lock was positioned so low, that the bottom of the pan is BELOW the side flat of the barrel. If it were primed the priming powder would go down into the lock mortice. I don`t think I have to explain to anyone on here how CATASTROPHIC!! this could turn out to be.  Yes , there are remedies to fix this. My point in showing this is to illustrate to the new builders how important lock placement really is. It is a crying shame , because ,someone took some good quality parts , and let ONE critical mistake , shut it down. There really is a nice little rifle still in there , waiting for someone to bring her out . I know that we could start a whole new thread on how to fix it , but I really just wanted to show how important it is to pay attention to your layouts .   Thanks Nate

[KC]

I saw your post in the For Sale section. It really was a shame because the rest of the rifle looks really nice. Fixing that would take someone with much better skills than I've been able to accumulate to this point, but I agree with you. Some of the folks here could make that rifle look great. Thanks for a great reminder on lock placement.

[smylee grouch]

Hi Nate, could you lower the barrel any on that rifle, maybe enough at the breech end to make it work.

[ddoyle]

Did they angle the bolster so that the pan/barrel are sealed? If there is no danger of powder migrating and creating an unsafe condition then it might very well shoot just fine. If it is set up safe  then only a serious issue with FTF would make it an abomination. 

If the lock is currently not safely hard against something then a piece could be added to the flat or to the bolster to make it safe and useable.   Made safe someone might just use it very happily and productively for many years with out ever knowing what a bodg it is.

[chubby]

Hi Guys, I agree with Smylee I would lower about 3/16 to 1/4 you can see a taper from the front of lock panel back. And a hump behind the  hammer in the picture thats to high that acounts for the notch  behind the hammer! I would then re-profile the tang and lock area!  Just my 2 cents worth,  Chubby 

[smylee grouch]

Chubby, I don't think you could lower it that much, it's hard to tell by looking at the picture but you might be able to lower it to the point where the barrel would prevent any prime into the lock cavity. It might be a big job as you would have to re-position some barrel pins, lock bolts and address the lower tang maybe causing the tang to be proud of the wood. If you did all that and also what ddoyle suggested, you might get it to a safe serviceable condition. Might not be pretty but it might work.

[Sawfiler]

Am I wrong to assume that the best course of action in this situation would be to salvage the pieces and start with a new stock? Seems like whatever you try to do to fix it will create a whole host of other issues.

[Mike Brooks]

I'd restock it. Put the correct lock for the school in this time.

[n stephenson]

Thanks to everyone who has responded . I realize there are a number of ways to fix this and I have a pretty straight forward one in mind. However , I really was just posting this as a heads up on layout. As my friend does have it for sale or trade ,I would ask that people respect this with their feedback.  As Mike stated , NOT the best style lock for  this rifle. It will make a good shooter if fixed. Nate

[Mr. Bubbles]

Good reminder.  Thanks for posting.  Yes, there aren't many problems with builds that can't be fixed by the removal of more wood or metal.  Occasionally you need to add some, but that's rare.

[Hungry Horse]

As long as the touch hole isn’t above the pan cover, this is easily fixable. An oversized touch hole liner can be bought, or built, and installed in the proper location.

  Hungry Horse

[SingleMalt]

Mike has the ultimate solution, restock it.  I'd probably try filling the mortise and fit a new lock.  Probably a late English flintlock.  There's enough wood to reshape the lock panels and thin them so the lock is inlet to the proper depth.

[Hungry Horse]

I think the picture is the problem. Unless this is a barrel makers second that has unequal barrel flats, what looks like the bottom the pan being below the barrel flat, is more likely a shadow. Look at the flat above, and then look at the flat with the touch hole liner in it. I’ll agree this gun needs some fixin’ but I think the touch hole issue can be addressed without going to the lumberyard.

  Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

The side flat appears narrower, due to it being more in line with the camera and the flat above that appears wider due to it's angle to the lence- yes there is an optical illusion present.

That is how I see it.

Monitor quality along with video card can ALSO make a big difference in how we see pictures. 

The flat below the touch-hole is definitely exposed on my monitor.

[Justin Urbantas]

The lock panels are plenty big, I wonder if someone could get a larger fowler type lock that they could inlet  right over the existing inlet

[n stephenson]

I tried to take the picture to show that the pan IS below the flat . IF YOU PRIME IT ,THE POWDER WILL GO INTO THE LOCK MORTICE!!!! I do appreciate everyone`s input on how to fix this , however it was posted , to show people what can happen with improper layout. I realize the pics may not be that good , but for goodness sake , give me enough credence , to believe me when I say IT IS MESSED UP!! IT DOES NOT LINE UP!! THERE IS A GAP UNDER THE PAN!!   I do know how to fix it , it is a straight forward fix. It is not my rifle , and I have no intention of repairing it. I  may rethink posting examples for educational purposes also!!

[ScottH]

Nate
Thanks for posting this. I did learn something and believe it was worthwhile to see. Probably keep me out of trouble in the future.

[jaeren]

I believe the replies might be aimed at some one thinking of buying the rifle and how it might be corrected or i might be wrong. But posting here keeps the post in the for sale limited to people interested in buying.

[Dan Fruth]

I would get a gun builders losk from Chambers and make the pattern for the plate so it fits where it should, and make the plate fit the pattern and inlet it where it should be. Probably need to build up the trigger bar to reach the sear...Looks like you will need to lift the lock a considerable amount to make it work...Bummer!

[Chowmi]

I tried to take the picture to show that the pan IS below the flat . IF YOU PRIME IT ,THE POWDER WILL GO INTO THE LOCK MORTICE!!!! I do appreciate everyone`s input on how to fix this , however it was posted , to show people what can happen with improper layout. I realize the pics may not be that good , but for goodness sake , give me enough credence , to believe me when I say IT IS MESSED UP!! IT DOES NOT LINE UP!! THERE IS A GAP UNDER THE PAN!!   I do know how to fix it , it is a straight forward fix. It is not my rifle , and I have no intention of repairing it. I  may rethink posting examples for educational purposes also!!

If it's any consolation Nate,
I read your post and understood the purpose clearly the first time. 

Norm

[GMFHunter]

As a new builder (I'm working on my second rifle) I can sympathize. I have made a lot of mistakes but so far nothing catastrophic like that. I have learned that it would not take much to waste a good stock - you have to pay attention to what you are doing at all times.

[Long John]

Nate,

As with all of the posts I recollect seeing from you, your intent is clear - to educate.  For that we all should thank you.

There are so many problems with that lock layout that I would be inclined to restock it.  Making filler pieces will still leave the vent so low compared to the pan that it will be a slow, unreliable shooter, at best.  Also, is the vent covered with the frizzen closed?  From the picture it doesn't appear that the pan cover portion of the frizzen is thick enough to cover the vent when the frizzen is closed.  Letting the barrel in deeper might be an option, but is there space along the length of the stock to allow that?  When you consider all the work to salvage this gun is it worth it in time and money or would the same amount of time and money get you further by obtaining a stock and using the parts from this one?

Layout is super important.  I am just a hobby builder so I can't say I do it "right".  But once I let in the barrel I build  the whole gun around the vent.  I mark the vent location on the barrel with a center-punch, remove the detachable pan from the lock and let in just the pan to the "ideal location" relative to the vent.  The pan then locates the lock plate.  The lock plate locates the sear.  The sear locates the trigger and the trigger locates the butt-plate.  I layout the gun on paper first to make sure everything will work within the confines of the gun I seek to build before I start cutting wood.

It a good topic for the beginner to consider, especially if considering a unique build or making a gun from the blank.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

[n stephenson]

Nate,

As with all of the posts I recollect seeing from you, your intent is clear - to educate.  For that we all should thank you.

There are so many problems with that lock layout that I would be inclined to restock it.  Making filler pieces will still leave the vent so low compared to the pan that it will be a slow, unreliable shooter, at best.  Also, is the vent covered with the frizzen closed?  From the picture it doesn't appear that the pan cover portion of the frizzen is thick enough to cover the vent when the frizzen is closed.  Letting the barrel in deeper might be an option, but is there space along the length of the stock to allow that?  When you consider all the work to salvage this gun is it worth it in time and money or would the same amount of time and money get you further by obtaining a stock and using the parts from this one?

Layout is super important.  I am just a hobby builder so I can't say I do it "right".  But once I let in the barrel I build  the whole gun around the vent.  I mark the vent location on the barrel with a center-punch, remove the detachable pan from the lock and let in just the pan to the "ideal location" relative to the vent.  The pan then locates the lock plate.  The lock plate locates the sear.  The sear locates the trigger and the trigger locates the butt-plate.  I layout the gun on paper first to make sure everything will work within the confines of the gun I seek to build before I start cutting wood.

It a good topic for the beginner to consider, especially if considering a unique build or making a gun from the blank.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

John, Thanks for posting, You have touched on a good point. I was taught , like you , to set the barrel , locate touch hole, let the touch hole locate pan position , which , locates sear, trigger , butt  plate , as you stated. As far as this rifle is concerned , the pic  may not show it , but the touch hole isn't  too far off , if the lock was re inletted and move up it would seal up against the barrel. Filling the lock mortice and moving the lock would be the easiest in my opinion , maybe  not the prettiest , but easier than a total restock. JMHO  Nate

[54ball]

 Nate,
 This is part of the layout discussion...

 I believe this happened because to builder was being reactive rather than proactive. I do believe he made this mistake......

 The barrel channel was worked down revealing almost all of the side flat. The lock was then let there with the bolster in line with the top of the low barrel channel.

 Or....

 The barrel was deep in it's inlet and he just a started the lock down....come what may.
 The result is the same, he missed the side flat.

 So there was no Layout or.....the layout was wrong. Even if the layout was wrong....You would think the builder would have caught this...when the bolster was down, before he started letting the plate down. Once the plate inlet was started....the die was cast. Even if he was letting the lock down in one piece, he should have caught it.

 When you lay one out, you need to be proactive, Meaning planning for the correct mesh of parts.

 Let's take.....Chambers' sets. For the most part his parts are designed to all mesh together. The basic rifle design was laid out for the parts used.....They go together well.
 On the other hand there are parts sets where it's just a tossed fruit salad of parts. On these or a blank build the builder needs to really be proactive and lay it all out.
 Proactive.....careful planning....attention to detail....in,other words not being sloppy in the layout.

 Being reactive....

 You really should not be reactive in layout...what I mean by this is having a sloppy come what may attitude or....building or laying the thing out as you go with no thought of parts mesh. A term that comes to mind is.....Seat of your pants.....let the loose end drag....good enough....or hopefully this works...

 Now with all that being said....
 Best laid plans some go to waste. Sometimes the layout is wrong....sometimes a dumb mistake was made, sometimes the wrong line was used....sometimes the stock blank warps sometimes the drill wonders....so then.....Being reactive is a good thing. Auto-Correct

 Case in point.....this rifle.
 He should have been proactive in making sure basic layout accounted for the barrel flat...
 So he was reactive in matching the top of the lock with a too low barrel channel.
 In the process, if he was paying attention, he should have reacted to the bolster and pan being too low. Instead he went ahead without situational awareness.
 In other words....tunnel vision. Sometimes stubbornness or both.

 I know this post kind of goes all over the place but in building these things there needs to be a measure of precision. On the other hand there needs to be a measure of reaction or "seat of the pants" correction for imperfect material or gross mistakes.

 It's a balancing act. It"s taking something imperfect and making it look perfect. It has to be precise where it has to be. It has to look precise where it can't be.

 
 

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

54 Ball;
You've hit all the high points.  Yeah, there are a lot of things that need to be done to make this gun "right"  We've only seen one picture, but my guess is there's a lot more wood and metal that needs to come off in places that aren't shown here.