Tumbler mill alternative?

[Justin Urbantas]

Hey folks. I just finished watching American Pioneer's hand forged lock video. It was a pretty good video, and gave me some great ideas.  Most parts of the lock look pretty straightforward, but making the tumbler surfaces perfectly square seems tricky.  In the movie Mike Miller uses a tumbler mill, and I know some other folks have used lathes.  Does anybody have  a recommendation for a low tech method?
Thanks,
Justin

[Mark Elliott]

The 18th century type tumbler mill is the lowest tech alternative.   I had made one out of a large file which didn't work so well.   I later found out the the original ones look kinda like a file, but are not made exactly the same.   They cut differently.    I have a period correct tumbler mill on my list of things to do.   In the mean time,  I use a little lathe to turn tumblers.   I forge a blank and then turn and file the tumbler out of the blank.   On this page http://www.markelliottva.com/wordpress/2016/03/hand-made-colonial-virginia-lock/ I have photos of a tumbler mill I make from a file, and a photo of an original 18th tumbler mill.    I should note that an 18th century mill is only intended to square up the tumbler.   You have to forge it and then file it close to  final shape.   

[Bob Roller]

The 18th century type tumbler mill is the lowest tech alternative.   I had made one out of a large file which didn't work so well.   I later found out the the original ones look kinda like a file, but are not made exactly the same.   They cut differently.    I have a period correct tumbler mill on my list of things to do.   In the mean time,  I use a little lathe to turn tumblers.   I forge a blank and then turn and file the tumbler out of the blank.   On this page http://www.markelliottva.com/wordpress/2016/03/hand-made-colonial-virginia-lock/ I have photos of a tumbler mill I make from a file, and a photo of an original 18th tumbler mill.    I should note that an 18th century mill is only intended to square up the tumbler.   You have to forge it and then file it close to  final shape.   

I turn the shank diameter to finished size,usually .311-.312 then
insert it into a fixture in a 6"lathe and establish the thickness and
ALMOST the dimension of he bearing shaft thru the bridle.
This dimension is the finished when the tumbler blank is needed
for a new lock.It is .139-.140 which is the same as many top British
locks of the caplock era.
I have NO romanticized ideas about making an easy job into a labor
intensive PITA.Get the job DONE and out the door to the customer.
Same goes for all lock parts.Any and all shortcuts that are consistent
with my own ideas of quality control are employed if at all possible.

Bob Roller

[ddoyle]

Stelle&Harrison in the 1883 book How to be a Gunsmith have an excellent simple run down on making screw making and breeching tools. ( i.e tumbler mill)  Easy to find cheap book.
 
If you are still in the LM look on craigslists. The sieg 7x PA lathe that is listed for 800 hundred can be had for <350 cdn last time I talked to him. He also had some 10 inch bed craftex ones for almost free. No lock maker should face the day with out a lathe.
If it makes you feel better just use Carbon steel cutters-  lamp light and turn the spindle by hand.

[SingleMalt]

If you only want a few, (less than ten) I'd have a machine shop turn them from the proper rod stock.  Something like 4140 or maybe 1095.  For all I know, W-1 may work fine.

[somehippy]

I made a tumbler last year for my first rifle.  Roughed it out from a bolt with a hacksaw and files then chucked the nub in my drill press.  I put a  file in a vise width wise and lowered my tumbler blank to it dressing down the sides to width and truing the axles.  I had my vise attached somewhat loosely by one bolt at the rear, then I could hold the file by the handle in the vise and move it as need be for turning the axles.  Kinda a sketchy proceedure but it worked great, and didn't take long.  Having the vise/file snug enough to remove verticals play but loose enough to slide side to side also made damages less likely if something bit hard, I can email pics of my redneck tumbler mill arrangement if you like.

[Justin Urbantas]

I'd like to see your pictures Somehippy. My email is blacksmithju@hotmail.com
My thought was to drill a bunch of holes in an annealed file, and then harden it.  Then I would chuck the tumbler in a drill and run it in the holes, truing the surface. Do you guys think that would work?

[somehippy]

Sent some pics off to ya.

[Curtis]

Here is a great thread concerning tumbler mills: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31262.0

Curtis

[rich pierce]

I'd like to see your pictures Somehippy. My email is blacksmithju@hotmail.com
My thought was to drill a bunch of holes in an annealed file, and then harden it.  Then I would chuck the tumbler in a drill and run it in the holes, truing the surface. Do you guys think that would work?

Unlikely to stay true, I would think.

Here’s the thing: do you want the experience of making a tumbler or do you just need a tumbler?  Or is your lockplate hole cobbled up so you need a special dimension?

[Bob Roller]

If you only want a few, (less than ten) I'd have a machine shop turn them from the proper rod stock.  Something like 4140 or maybe 1095.  For all I know, W-1 may work fine.

I USE 1144 "Stressproof". It machines like 12L14,easy to file and mill
and hardens like drill rod.
Bob Roller

[Justin Urbantas]

I'd like to see your pictures Somehippy. My email is blacksmithju@hotmail.com
My thought was to drill a bunch of holes in an annealed file, and then harden it.  Then I would chuck the tumbler in a drill and run it in the holes, truing the surface. Do you guys think that would work?

Unlikely to stay true, I would think.

Here’s the thing: do you want the experience of making a tumbler or do you just need a tumbler?  Or is your lockplate hole cobbled up so you need a special dimension?

I would just like to build a lock (or maybe a few more later) from start to finish from scratch.

[Justin Urbantas]

Here is a great thread concerning tumbler mills: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31262.0

Curtis

Thanks for pointing me to that other thread. very helpful

[ddoyle]

For a light mill with minimum work- the yoke off a bobbin winder from 1920-1960 Singer 99 or similiar machine could be used to efficient effect.  Just enough room between the paralell bores to mount the cutters and a mostly done tumbler. American Cast iron so it is stiff enough and looks nice, has mounting lugs cast in suffient to resist the handle tourque, pulley wheel on one side is enough to rivet a handle to. 

[Billy Mike]

I am in possession of metal from wagon wheels anywhere from 100 to 130 years old. Would that type of metal be suitable for tumblers or any part of a flintlock at all?

[David R. Pennington]

Most likely is wrought iron. Some of this is good and some not so good. There were several grades and seems like wagon tires got made from about all types. I have found some to be very good quality iron and some stringy and hard to work. Hard to tell before you start working it. Wrought iron would be original material. Forge at higher heats than mild steel. Case harden after it is made.

[Billy Mike]

Is there any way to judge it by just holding and examining it?

[Mark Elliott]

Here is a great thread concerning tumbler mills: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31262.0

Curtis

I really don't recommend making a tumbler mill out of files as shown in this thread.   Been there and done that and it doesn't work very well.   Real 18th century tumbler mills weren't made like a file and they still wouldn't cut as well as a 19th century tumbler mill.   Even though it is not period correct, the Gunsmith shop at Williamsburg uses a reproduction 19th century tumbler mill.   

[bob in the woods]

I've made one lock from scratch , patterned after a Siler.  I just wanted to see if I could do it, and really have no need to make another !!    However , I tried using files etc,  drill press and a bunch of other things to make a usable tumbler. Never did end up with anything I was really happy with , so changed it out for a Siler tumbler.  Now the lock works well.  For me that tumbler was the stumbling point. How many gunsmiths made their own locks , and where are all the surviving 18th C tumbler mills ?   I believe history tells us that locks were almost 100 % imported during this time, and lock making was a guild bound industry in Europe, with specialists i.e. filers, etc.   

[Bob Roller]

I've made one lock from scratch , patterned after a Siler.  I just wanted to see if I could do it, and really have no need to make another !!    However , I tried using files etc,  drill press and a bunch of other things to make a usable tumbler. Never did end up with anything I was really happy with , so changed it out for a Siler tumbler.  Now the lock works well.  For me that tumbler was the stumbling point. How many gunsmiths made their own locks , and where are all the surviving 18th C tumbler mills ?   I believe history tells us that locks were almost 100 % imported during this time, and lock making was a guild bound industry in Europe, with specialists i.e. filers, etc.

I had a web site from England about 9 years ago and it was hosted by
a man in England. It was called "Lock Filers of Wolverhampton" and
looked like a city phone book from back in the day of all land lines.
Lathes and milling machines,drill presses,rotating tables and last but
certainly not least came PRECISION measurement.
Lock making IS labor intensive and I am slowing down and am now
the "slow poke".What gets done is just THAT and the rest can wait.

Bob roller

[Hungry Horse]

A workable treadle lathe can be made from an old large crank bench grinder, or the gearbox and crank off of a blacksmiths blower. A heavy flywheel can easily be made from a big old bar bell weight, and you have to build your own foot pedal and linkage. A large three jaw chuck from an electric drill, and your ready to start making tumblers. The tool used to recut old faucet seats can be rebored to a size that will allow you to face off the tumbler, either in a treadle lathe, or with a crank drill press, or even a hand drill. Buying a kit from Jim Chambers is a lot easier.

  Hungry Horse

[David R. Pennington]

Is there any way to judge it by just holding and examining it?

You can often see the 'grain' structure in wrought iron, especially if it is a little rusty / weathered. The better grades were more refined and harder to see the grain. Forging it is the only way I know to tell what you have.