Author Topic: To welt or not to welt  (Read 3480 times)

Offline scottmc

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To welt or not to welt
« on: January 30, 2018, 09:04:02 PM »
That is my question.  I've been dabbling with bag making for a few years now and have just finished up a couple recently but I very rarely use a welt.  Not knowing if many originals had them or not since you don't see many side shots of bags, I was wondering what the bag makers here think.  First, what is the purpose of the welt and second do see them more than not on bags from the 19th and 18th century? 


The bag in the photo I made a couple years ago using bark tan goat.  No welt but solid stitched bag.
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Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2018, 11:08:14 PM »
 ??? ??? ???... Are you referring to an actual "welt" , or perhaps a "gusset", between the front and back pieces...??... just curious ... Thanx, C C Fiddler .... ??? ??? ??? 

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2018, 03:56:40 AM »
Welts and gusset.




« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 05:36:33 AM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline scottmc

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2018, 05:29:06 AM »
Cades, I'm talking about a welt, not a gusset.  What is its purpose first off and then do you see much of it on early original bags?  Dave, nice bag!  The gusset does offer extra room to carry items for sure. 
Does the welt protect the threads more?  The following bag I just finished up last night by rubbing in some bear fat.  As you can see, no welt but you can see the stitching.  Just wondering.




« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 05:37:06 AM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline okieboy

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2018, 05:29:48 PM »
 In your last picture which has no welt you can see the stitching, which means that the stitching is exposed to wear. The purpose of the welt is to provide the stitching with a barrier to wear, so that it lasts longer. It also hides the stitching for a neater appearance and can be a decorative element. 
Okieboy

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2018, 06:12:09 PM »
Unwelted bags tend to pull themselves apart in a short time, if anything that has any weight is carried in them. Same thing with primitive footwear. I use a welt unless I want it to look like it was thrown together on the spur of the moment.

 Hungry Horse

Offline scottmc

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2018, 06:23:14 PM »
Okie and Horse, your information is what I was thinking but  wasn't sure about.  In your experiences, do you see many older bags with it or more without?  I think I'll  start using them more in my bags.
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Offline okieboy

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2018, 07:04:27 PM »
 I am no expert on antique bags, but almost all types of objects, both new and old, are produced at various quality levels. Low end bags would not have welting and would be sewn with an overhand stitch. Better quality bags would have welting and be saddle stitched. So it becomes an issue of what type of item you want to produce.
Okieboy

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2018, 07:37:49 PM »
I think a primitive one piece bag without a bottom seam would no doubt last for some time, because it lacks a seam in the very bottom where it would be the most likely to fail. But, I think a two piece bag would fail quite quickly.

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Offline GA Turner

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2018, 04:13:43 PM »
Here is a photo of a original welted bag. It was on display at Georgia Museum of Art, Georgia Longrifle display. You can see the welt clearly just under the powder horn. Purpose was to strengthen seam and protect stitching. This bag and horn set has been with the Allen Rifle for at least three generations.


Offline B.Barker

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2018, 04:57:50 PM »
A lot of the "home spun" looking bags have no welts that I've seen. Notice I didn't say all. If the person that was making the shot pouch knew nothing about proper leather work they wouldn't use it. If they had some knowledge they probably would. The biggest factor I've had with stich wear is how much moister the item gets and abrasion.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2018, 05:45:16 PM »
I’ve got an un-welted bag I made in 1978 that’s holding up but I didn’t turn it inside out. So maybe less stitch strain?  Light use but old.


That being said, I know better now. And no more “artificial sinew”!
Andover, Vermont

Offline scottmc

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2018, 10:13:03 PM »
Thanks for posting the picture, ga.  Alwys nice to see an old one.  I've been on this journey to make myself pouches for each of my guns that I can look at and say, wow, nice job Scott.  But I haven't got there yet as I always end up selling or donating to some cause.  I'll start doing this now with a welt since I consider my work good with stitching and construction so may as well go the extra step with a welt.  Folks in my club tell me I have "the look" which I've been concentrating on too much and overlooking the basics.  This may sound crazy but years ago bought a pain country country style bag from Ken Scott just to dissect.  Best thing I ever did but still can't get his look.😕  it's  fun trying,though.
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Offline B.Barker

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2018, 06:42:40 AM »
Scottmc go to the site Dennis posted for the shot bag article. Most the pouches have no welt in them. There is two that have fringe and these are welts but the others have none that can be seen. Some you can see the stitching so there is no doubt that it is welt free. Like I said earlier I think welts were used by people that were professionals and by a few that had some idea how proper leather work was done. If I want my bag to look like its a home spun pouch I leave out welts. If I'm going for a professional look then I use welts or edge binding. Very few people will wear out a shot pouch in their life time these days.

Offline thecapgunkid

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2018, 03:01:14 PM »



Take a look at this bag.  I have put it into a couple of leatherworking articles because the stitching is typical of the 18th century.  The tight, small stitches can only be made with a tapered thread end, a small bristle or needle, and a smaller bladed stabbing awl.

Sometimes a welt matters, and sometimes it doesn't.

In a practical sense a welt will do a couple of things.   It will shelter stitching, but it is questionable whether it will protect it.  When thread gets wet,and then dries and suffers the mould in the leather around it, it'll rot. period.  With a welt, though, it gets less of that exposure because more of it is hidden.  IN a modern bag, the greater impact on thread is because of larger holes that are stabbed and waxed thread that does not fill them.



The two best skills my master taught me was how to taper a thread end and use a smaller needle( or bristle) AND how to sharpen and polish my awl so that I could stab a hole in which both sewing threads fit tightly.

The major support against rot was not so much the welt, but the handwax that saturated the thread and burned itself into both thread and leather when a stitch was pulled closed.

The second effect of a welt in a bag is to help prevent the leather from..."grinning"...when the bag is turned inside out.   An un-welted seam may finish unevenly turned, or twist and turn along its course resulting in a lot of extra work to force it straight, especially when skived along the edge  before assembling ( or closing) to get the bag to even out. Sometimes that happens and sometimes it doesn't.

So, go ahead and welt.  Looks macaroni anyway.

Unless you are proficient at COAD ( or handwax) which is made by combining pine pitch, resin and a little oil whatever else you wax your thread with will only go so far in keeping out the rot...HOWEVER...that's usually a long time the way we use bags and such.

Don't be so quick to shy away from artificial sinew, but, before you buy a roll, try to untwist about three inches off the end.  You can smear it back together again easily because it just a bunch of nylon slammed together with a lot of wax. The better rolls look like a thin ribbon that is quite fine.  It will twist and combine well with either linen of hemp thread.  You can get it to look almost imperceptible when as one single ply and make the stitches last a lot longer.  The key is to be able to break it into a sinlg strand ( or ply) rather than leave it in bulk.

I usually sew with one ply linen and two plies hemp and maybe one ply artificial sinew if feeling frisky.

Three years ago I came back to rendezvous at Slippery Rock after a brief ( 15 year) trek into cowboy action shooting, and a guy showed up with a pair of shoes I made him twenty years ago.   He wanted a replacement pair and I was surprised he wasn't crippled because everything on those shoes was beat into submission except the stitching.

As always, there's a lot of good advice in these threads. 

The Still River Cordwainer ( AKA The Capgun Kid



Offline Greg Pennell

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2018, 03:35:26 PM »
Thanks, all...lots of food for thought, and lots of good information. I’m strictly an amateur, just sewing up the occasional piece for myself, and this has been a very helpful “thread”.  Please keep the tips coming!

Greg

PS...Happy Groundhogs Day!
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 03:37:37 PM by g.pennell »
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Offline Marcruger

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2018, 01:25:48 AM »
I agree, I wouldn't jump to say a bag is stronger just because it has a welt.  The leather thickness, stitching type, thread type, whether the pieces are glued before stitching.....  A lot of variables there. 
Just my 2 cents worth.  God Bless,   Marc

Offline scottmc

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Re: To welt or not to welt
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2018, 04:21:05 AM »
I like everything I've  seen for comments so thank you.  B. Barker thanks for your thought on this as well
.  I was at Lewisburg today and was talking to Tom Greco on the subject as well.  Also saw a few originals and most had the welt, surprisingly.
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