Author Topic: Barrel twists for patched round and mini-balls, for best accuracy.  (Read 5832 times)

IC2(SS)19Z50C5B8

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Okay.. Here goes. Time to jump into the pool, so to speak. I'm brand new here.
And my question may have been already asked previously. So bear with me.
I'm not new to shooting, or to shooting BP muzzler loaders, but I'm new to flintlocks. (I have three percussion cap lock CW/WNA era rifles) but I just purchased my first flintlock rifle awhile ago. A Traditions .50 Caliber Pennysalvainia rifle. After purchasing it, (it has a 1-66 twist barrel), I started surfing the comparable items on Dixie gun works in that caliber. I noticed the differences in twist in this caliber.. So, when it comes to patched round balls in this caliber, what twist tends to be more accurate??.. (Since I'm on the high side of 66, I figger' this thread is the best one to mebe' post this question on. But if it's not, please let me know.... (more about CW/WNA rifled muskets and their twists later)
Please Advise,
as Woodrow would say, "Many Thanks"

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Barrel twists for patched round and mini-balls, for best accuracy.
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2018, 05:20:59 AM »
The best is the one you have if you do your part in working up the right load for what you have. In a general sort of way lower powder charges for a faster rate of twist-larger powder charges for a slower twist. This is all if your ball/patch/lube combo is "right". When working up the best load there are a lot of different combinations that should be considered. What do you consider accurate? Some people think keeping them in the black is ok but some want them all to be in the 10 ring at what ever yardage.

IC2(SS)19Z50C5B8

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Re: Barrel twists for patched round and mini-balls, for best accuracy.
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 06:36:36 AM »
Hey Smylee, Thanks for the feedback.. Much appreciated..

As for accuracy, I know we are not talking what modern cartridge guns are capable of. I have a book about CW/WNA rifled Muskets. Claud E. Fuller's THE RIFLED MUSKET. On page 149, titled, The Contract Musket of the Civil War they state accuracy as follows:

"The caliber is .58, using a hollow bullet of 500 grains and 60 grains of powder. The muzzle velocity was 950 F.S.  The pitch of the rifling is one turn in 6 feet, uniform twist. There are 3 grooves each .3 of and inch wide, .005 of an inch deep at the muzzle, increasing regularly in depth to .015 at the breech.
The accuracy was sufficient to hit the size of a man on horseback at 600 yards, and the power sufficient to penetrate four inches of soft pine at 1000 yards. At lesser ranges the rifle musket was expected to put 10 consecutive shots in:

4 inch bullseye at 100 yards
9 inch bullseye at 200 yards
11 inch bullseye at 300 yards
18.5 inch bullseye at 400 yards
27 inch bullseye at 500 yards"

Okay, we are talking a 500 grain mini ball, and I'd be more than be happy to attain this type of accuracy with a lighter .50 caliber patched round ball out of my new .50 Cal Pennys Traditions rifle out to 2-3 yards, if possible. (Your experiences all, please)

(BTW, my interest in this whole flintlock thing was sparked by teaching my AFD (Adoptive Foster Daughter's) girls a two day home school class on the French and Indian War and the American Revolutionary War.)
A fascinating time in our country, culturally and ballistically !!! 

Thanks again for your feedback Smylee, and all who also may contribute. I'm all ears as to leaning the ins and outs of the rifled flintlock!!

 

Offline L. Akers

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Re: Barrel twists for patched round and mini-balls, for best accuracy.
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 06:02:14 PM »
For round balls, the faster twists are more particular about the amount of powder they want for best accuracy.  The slower the twist, the more forgiving they are in powder charge.  In other words, the slower twists give you a wider "window" of accurate charges.  When you go beyond one caliber in bullet length you need faster twists to stabilize the bullet.  Google "Greenhill formula" to calculate an approximation of twist needed for a caliber and bullet.  The formula was actually for cannon, but I've found it works pretty well for rifles.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Barrel twists for patched round and mini-balls, for best accuracy.
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 06:02:59 PM »
You won't get that kind of accuracy from a round ball. The mini has a much better BC and will be more accurate at longer ranges. The 100 yds can be shot better than what you list, but it's a long shot after that.

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Barrel twists for patched round and mini-balls, for best accuracy.
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2018, 06:58:51 PM »
IC2, you did well including groove depth in your post. Most discussions of twist for PRB do not include depth of rifling. In my 45 years experience using twists from 1/48 to 1/72 with PRBs, all can work. However a groove depth of .010”-.012 is optimum (I’ve no experience w round bottom rifling that is often .016” deep). Best results were found w tight ball and patch combinations and appropriate powder charges. 

As another post indicates faster twists work w moderate charges and slower twist are more acceptable to heavier charges. RBs engage the barrel around a narrow band. Tighter ball patch combos swages both lead and patch material into the grooves for a better grip as well as sealing the expanding gases behind the ball.  On firing the sudden acceleration of the ball (an object at rest) causes both recoil and torque as the ball tries not to move forward or to spin.  Accelerating too fast in a fast twist can cause the thin area of engagement to fail (aka stripping the rifling) so that the ball has little if any stabilizing spin.  I am about to embark on shooting RBs from a smooth bore North West Trade Gun.  A steep learning curve and probably humbling experiences are ahead.

I anticipate you will have more questions about patch material, lubes, powder and powder charges, flints, priming powder, etc. but one topic at a time. Enjoy the journey.

Thanks for your service
TC
AE2 USN 1966-1970
USS TICONDEROGA CVA-14
TC
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 07:32:23 PM by Standing Bear »
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

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Offline little joe

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Re: Barrel twists for patched round and mini-balls, for best accuracy.
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2018, 07:42:16 PM »
You have a flintlock rifle made for round ball, work up a load for it and forget the minin, maxie ect. The muskets mentioned were breeched up different and were heavier at the breech. I would use the round ball and stay on the safe side.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Barrel twists for patched round and mini-balls, for best accuracy.
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2018, 08:39:18 PM »
What Joe said.

Hungry Horse

Offline Daryl

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Re: Barrel twists for patched round and mini-balls, for best accuracy.
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2018, 09:48:07 PM »
When I received my last .50, having, I think, a 56" twist since the recently Late Don Getz, (RIP friend) made the barrel for Taylor, I started with 75gr. 2F GOEX and a tightly patched .495" ball.  The rifling is .016" deep.  After shooting a target with it, I raised the powder charge to 85gr. 2F and am happy with that load, so far, for shooting on our trail through the bush. More rest shooting/testing is in order for that rifle. For hunting, I will be testing that rifle to about 110gr. or 115gr. 2F & I am sure, it will simply shoot better with the heavier charges and oiled patch, than it does with the lighter charges and water-based wet patches I use for plinking.

As others have noted, you cannot compare long range shooting with slugs against round balls.  Slugs or conicals can accurately be projected over a long range, much longer ranges actually, than a round ball will even travel.  Most calibres of shoulder fired rifles (up to .75 cal. at least) will not even project a round ball to 1,000yards, let alone make a killing or disabling blow at that range.

A round ball is a close range proposition, with perhaps 150yards maximum with a .50 for deer sized game - but only IF you AND the rifle are capable at that range. Otherwise, get closer.

The Hollow Based slug was invented for quick & easy loading over long periods of time and to give longer accurate range shooting, for war purposes.  We must ask ourselves, is a rifle designed for long range shooting at our enemies the best 'system' for hunting.  To answer that, we must examine the characteristics of each to determine which is best for our end goal.
 
The conical firing rifle was/is designed for shooting tall narrow 'targets' with a fairly long hitting zone, while animals are short in comparison with long bodies but smallish kill zones.  We desire to kill animals quickly and without suffering, while our designs and intentions against our enemies are not so pleasant.

Since a man wounded by a 500gr. chunk of lead going through him, wounds him to the extent he is either killed or simply taken out of the conflict, thus a hit anywhere over the length of his torso from head to crotch including his thighs, is the goal.  Due to the sheer height of the target zone, a high trajectory is not problematic, but rather advantageous to our end goal, that being to kill is as much of a goal as is to wound. A bullet, fairly aimed at the centre of mass but striking 10" high, will hit the head, while 10" low will be in the crotch or thighs. Thus, good shot, old chap!  The same aim and hits on an animal, however, will miss high or low, or if hitting, might wound in either event rather than delivering a fatal blow.  A long, stern chase in inevitable.

The high trajectory that matters little in a military weapon, makes for grave difficulty hitting the killing zone on an animal over relatively short, but unknown distances.  Thus, the flatter the trajectory, the better for us hunters.  A well loaded round ball rifle properly sighted, will give a trajectory flat enough to kill deer without any holdover or hold under, from the muzzle to about 125 yards - which can be labeled it's point blank range.  Thus the ball will be neither over 2 1/2" to 3" above, nor 2 1/2" to 3" below the line of sight. That 6" window gives us lung and heart shots to quite long ranges- IF properly sighted- and practiced.

 A minnie(conical)-ball shooting rifle has no such point black range, rather when shooting small 'targets' one must know the range exactly and how to hold the gun to hit it. With the round ball of high velocity, one merely covers the target fairly and hits it where we want it hit.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 09:55:03 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

IC2(SS)19Z50C5B8

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Re: Barrel twists for patched round and mini-balls, for best accuracy.
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2018, 11:48:22 PM »
Thanks for all the good feedback folks. I had never planned on shooting a mini ball in my flintlock anyway. I only use these in my .58 caliber WNA/CW replicas.
 
Many Thanks to All!!

Offline Daryl

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Re: Barrel twists for patched round and mini-balls, for best accuracy.
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2018, 06:24:38 AM »
Welcome to ALR and many thanks for your service.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 06:25:16 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V