TC Hawken Load Suggestion

[DarrinG]

Thanks again for the warm welcome to the site!

From what I've read here lately, it sure seems a lot of BP shooters cut their teeth on a T/C Hawken (or similar rifle). Well, that's where I am now!  I recently acquired a T/C Hawken 50 cal caplock rifle. The former owner informed me it was a 1977 year model. The barrel looks nice, clean and shiny and the rifle well maintained.

I am sure many of you have experimented much with varying loads for this rifle. What would you recommend I start with? I am wanting to try patched round balls. For a newbie such as me, I am assuming a .490 round ball and a .010 or .015 lubed patch? I am hoping to find black powder somewhere locally. I can expect Goex FFg to perform well with this rifle? Suggestions on grains of powder to start with for the TC Hawken? I wish for the load to be sufficient for whitetail deer hunting. I'm sure I will have to tweak and test different amounts of powder charges and such to get optimal accuracy and performance as rifles can be like traditional bows....even identical bows have some varying characteristics and one may like a slightly different arrow shaft/point weight than the next one. But a good starting point would be most helpful!

Thank you in advance, and for helping a new guy in the hobby!

[JPK]

.490 ball and 70 grains of 2fg shot very well in mine and would put a ball right threw a deer. I use pillow ticking bought at a fabric store then washed. Never miked the cloth but it was a firm fit that could be loaded with out a short starter and seated with the ram rod. Lube of your choice I use spit.

[Don Steele]

Darrin,
That original T/C barrel will shoot patched roundballs just fine. If you don't have easy access to genuine blackpowder you should know that Hodgdon Triple 7 works as well as Goex in your caplock. Measure it by VOLUME using any standard BP measure and you'll get good results. For 25-50 yd targets something like 60-70 gns works well. .490 balls are pretty easy to come by and also shoot just fine from your barrel with .015 and/or .020 patch material. Spit works for a lot of folks to lube their patches. I also have great results with commercially available products such as "Mr. Flintlock's Patch Lube and Bore Cleaner" and "Lehigh Valley Original Formula Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner and Preserative". FWIW: I generally recommend folks starting out on their own, (in a group with more experienced BP shooters) stay with common commercially available components to "get a feel" for shooting these things before branching out too far and introducing new "home-brewed" variables.
Most folks I know, including myself use a bit more powder for hunting. That's not to say that a mild load won't poke a hole through a deer but more powder gets you a faster ball ( to a point), a flatter trajectory and better penetration if your ball hits bone. My 50 cal hunting loads use 80-90 gns. Goex for example. As an archer...you understand the relationship of arrow speed and trajectory and the difference between poking paper at a known range and trying to humanely kill a deer in the woods, some random distance away.
CLEANING will be critical to your success with your new rifle. Most of the folks I see having "issues" with their first BP rifle find that their issues are the result of poor cleaning technique. The good news is, your T/C caplock is probably the easiest to clean BP rifle ever offered.
Mind your fouling...that's going to depend on your load combination but if it gets harder and harder to load due to fouling buildup, the remedy isn't to just push harder on the ramrod.   
Don't ask me how I know that, but 40+ yrs ago when I got my first T/C "Hawken" there was no internet, nor did I know anyone who had any experience so I just hauled off and got started.  You can wipe that bore between shots with a just damp patch and get it to load a lot easier and (potentially) more safe.
Enjoy the journey..!!

 

[Turtle]

One caution with triple 7. A friend with a caplock switched to it and became very lazy about cleaning. Unfortunately, his caps were corrosive. he ruined his barrel.

[DarrinG]

Good information...thank you for taking time to answer my newbie qustions!

I'm hoping to visit a gun shop in the next few days to begin getting some supplies. If I cannot find Goex, what is the consensus of Pyrodex RS? Or Triple 7? From what I'm reading, I would sure rather shoot Goex, but it may not be available locally.

[Dave Marsh]

I would get the real stuff even if you have to get it through the mail.  I have never tried Pyrodex so cannot speak to that but from what I have read here I would stay away from it.  Personally I have used 777 and it performs ok but the real stuff goes off every time.   Just my experience and opinion.


Dave

[OldMtnMan]

I suggest you shoot real black powder. It's messy and stinky, but it's what your gun was designed to shoot.

You can buy it here. There's a 4lb minimum.

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501


A really good patch lube is Mink Oil bought at TOW. It's popular on this forum for good reason.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/132/1/MINK-OIL

70-90gr of 2F will be a good powder load depending on your max hunting distance. A patch 0.15 or .018 should work ok and pillow ticking works good.

Make sure you have a good fit between the cap and nipple. The cap needs to seat all the way down on the nipple but not be loose so it falls off. It takes some experimenting to get right. Different brands of caps and nipples can be tried.

[CTShooter]

Mine likes a .490, 70grs FF, pillow ticking .0195 uncompressed, olive oil lube very damp, coned barrel and patches cut at the muzzle.

I don't have fouling issues at the range or in the field.

My rifle was a 70's kit I put together a few years ago.

[DarrinG]

Thanks, guys. Info is much appreciated. I'm gleaming all this info I can.

No success yet finding any black powder locally. Nada. Check every shop around and beyond with no such luck. Ordering may be what I have to do, and pay the high $$ shipping fees. In the meantime, what's the consensus of Triple 7?

Edit to say I have re-read Don's reply, again (great reply also!), and it seems I can get started with Triple 7 ffg and then keep searching or saving some coins to order Goex and have it shipped to me.

Question about pillow ticking: Is it all the same thickness? Or do I need to carry a micrometer in the fabric shop with me? 

[CTShooter]

I take a caliper with me, I also buy 4/5 yards at a time when I find the right stuff, wash it twice, cut it into strips

[longcruise]

Go to JoAnnes Fabrics and get some #40 pocket drill.  Then some .490 and .495 balls.  Ffg powder or Pyrodex RS.  Try a variety of charges with both ball sizes.  Mine always shot well with 70 grains and killed a bunch of deer.

For lube,  do a search here.  Should give you about 90 days of reading.   

[OldMtnMan]

Ok, let's break this down. The link I gave you for Graf's and Sons sells their brand of black powder for $15.99lb. Shipping is $7.95 and Hazmat fee is $20. If you buy the 4lb minimum it comes to $22.97 delivered to your door.

Triple7 will cost $24-$25lb. Plus, you have gas to go buy it and sales tax. It belongs in modern inline muzzleloaders. Not traditional muzzleloaders.

Black powder is not expensive or hard to buy online.

[DarrinG]

Thanks for putting it in perspective, Pete.

News...I found Goex at a gun shop about 45 miles away from me. Price was kinda steep at $30/ lb. But to buy one lb to try it will be worth the trip and $. If I like it then spend the $$$ to order from Grafs for 4 lbs.

[OldMtnMan]

That's the problem with shops. They really jack up BP prices so it's cheaper to buy online. I'm not sure they're aware how cheap it can be bought online?

Something you might not know about black powder is it has a much lower ignition temperature than all the substitutes. I find that makes it more reliable in ignition. As an example of the difference. You can't use the substitute powders in the pan of a flintlock. They won't fire off. So, even in a caplock like you have black powder will be more reliable.

Be prepared for a lot of fouling with BP. It's a dirty burning and smelly burning powder, but I love it. It's part of muzzleloaders. It will also have more of a boom when going off compared to a crack with shooting CF guns. The boom is much more pleasant.

[HAWKEN]

Darrin,  You will not find black powder displayed on the shelf, it is illegal to do so.  The BATF regulates how it must be stored, usually  off site in a locked storage box.  Ask the store owner or the oldest clerk.  The young guys may tell you they don't have it when they actually do.  You must clean your rifle ASAP when you can after shooting.  Both black powder and all substitutes, Pyrodex. 777, Black MZ, and all others become hydroscopic and acidic after burned.  If you do not, you will ruin the gun.  Keep yer powder dry........robin 

[Daryl]

I had a TC .50 back in the early 70's. I re-crowned the barrel to allow easier seating of a thick denim patch. I found the best accuracy, around 1" to 1 1/2" at 50 yards for 5 shot groups off bags to be a .495" ball and .022" patch & 75.0gr. to 85.0gr. 2F GOEX.  THAT is tight in the TC's .004" buttoned barrel, but shoot it did. A .490" ball with that patch will shoot just about as well and will be easier loading.
The factory barrel, actually MOST factory barrels have a machine cut crown that had 2 sharp shoulders - the outer and inner shoulders they cut on a lathe are too sharp to load a tight combination and need to be smoothed.

Here's a piece of TC .50 barrel I re-crowned for demo purposes.
 


Here is how to do it. Rotate the barrel now and then, about every 10 seconds and you are done in about 10 minutes or less.  A piece of cloth shoved down the tube will collect 'grindings' and be easily removed later.

[FDR]

Our local "Bass Pro Shop" has Goex black powder.  You have to ask at the gun counter.

Fred

[Marcruger]

Hi Darrin,

For patching, you have to think of two equations, and solve for the unknown. 

First, assume you actual bore is 0.50".  The grooves will be something like 0.012" deep, and there are two of them, one on each side.  So....

.50" + .012" + .012" = 0.524" to fill with patch and ball. 

Your guess was a .490 roundball with .010 patching.  Lets calculate that....

.490 + .010 + .010 = 0.510"  You needed 0.524" minimum. 

What will happen?  Not great.  Your load will not seal the grooves.  Gas and flame will blow by, cutting up the patch, fouling the bore badly, and giving you erratic velocities and poor accuracy. 

Ideally, you want compression on the patch to help it seal tightly.  To get minimal compression with a .490 RB you'd need at least .018" patching.   That equation is .524 bore and lands, plus .001 compression per side = .526.  So.....  .526 - .490 (ball) = .036 for patching.  Divide by two = .018 patching.  That is the minimum. 

Go to a .495 RB and you can drop the patch thickness.  Experiment to find what your gun likes better,  a .490 or .495. 

I personally load tight and like even more compression for target or accuracy work:  .495 on .018 patching. 

The patching is critical.  If I can see sunlight through the weave of the cloth held up to the sun I ditch it.  Use 100% cotton so you don't melt plastic to your bore.  I have not had luck with commercial pillow ticking.  I think more in terms of canvas.  I get mine untreated from The Minute Men patching. 

I hope this helps.  God Bless,  Marc

[DarrinG]

Thank you for that info, Marc! That's exactly they type info/knowledge I need to know and learn. Thanks for taking the time to explain that so well.

[Leatherbark]

Unless the barrel has been replaced your Thompson Center Hawken will have shallow grooves around .006 inches.

Bob

[RichG]

the t/c's I've owned liked 80-90 gr 3f. the twist limits your upper range. 3f is more suitable for 50 or 54 than 2f , but either will work. when shopping for ticking be careful. the chinese stuff is a very loose weave and doesn't work. The good stuff will feel hard to the touch and be .018-.020 thousanths thick. and yes take your calipers with you.

[DarrinG]

Thanks, Bob. Yes, the barrel is original. So .490 ball and .015 patch should get me in the ballpark without much if any blow by?

You guys are a wealth of information....thank you. I can see this hobby turning into almost a worse obsession than my traditional recurve bows! 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I too started out with a T/C "Hawken" in .50 cal.  Mine was a flintlock, 1971, and had rifling that was about .004" deep.  The only powder I could find then was Meteor Fg Cannon powder...looked like black rock salt!  I used it both in the bore and in the pan, and shot dozens of deer with that rifle when I was stationed on the Queen Charlotte Islands, now Haida Gwaii.  I used 70 gr. of powder, a .490" pure lead hand cast ball, and patching material that measured around .020".  My furthest shot was about 70 yards.  I cannot remember a deer that needed a coup de gras.

[OldMtnMan]

Daryl.......I borrowed your crown picture to show on another forum. Hope you don't mind?

[Daryl]

You are most welcome.