Need Help With .54 ball

[OldMtnMan]

   Ok, here's the deal. I hunt for black bear and use a .54 PRB. This is fine for a double lung shot, but we have to stalk on the ground here. Double lung shots are almost always doable when hunting in a treestand over bait. We don't have that option and I probably wouldn't do it anyway. So, my shots are close and unexpected in the thick brush bears like to hang out in. A lot of the shots are straight on or quartering away some. I have to pass on those shots because I don't trust a pure lead ball to bust through the shoulder and still go through the vitals. Maybe it would, but if it doesn't I have a wounded bear.

  So, what i'm thinking is a ball cast a little harder than pure lead. Not so much to make it too hard to load. Just enough to have a better chance of busting through a shoulder. Most of our bears aren't that big, but every now and then a big boy shows up. Not too far from me a guy shot one 550 lbs. You have to take a bear like that seriously.

 The help I need is I don't cast. I'm wondering if someone would make what i'm looking for? Charge me whatever you want. I'd like to use my same elk/deer load and just change the ball hardness for bear. That seems like a simple way to do it. I thought of a big lead conical, but that not traditional enough for me. I prefer to stay with a PRB.

  Can anybody help?

[Bigmon]

HEy Old Mt Man,
You sound like a serious bear hunter!  Have you ever heard of Meshack Browning?  Or read his book "Fourty Years A Hunter"??  Or something like that.
I have both .530 & .535 mould, and a bunch of fairly hard lead.  I know it's not pure, probably wheel weights.
I'd be happy to knock you out a few dozen to see what ya think of them

[ddoyle]

I think the reality is if your aiming at shoulder your gonna (or should expect to) have a wounded bear no matter how smashy your load is.  They do not really need that 4th leg to get around and will make more miles with out it then with it.
Unless the bear has his onside leg placed well forward just do not shoot.  If the leg is out of the way even a big bear is thin over the lungs  and easy to kill. If that leg is back it seldom ends well and bears are exactly 100X harder to track then ungulates because they do not bleed properly- The wound plugging with fat in a hurry and paws leave no marks where hooves would.

It might be a toss up as to wether a bit more penetration is more or less desirable then more energy transer and  a larger cavity to let the air out?

Do not dispair the bear that does not give you a shot today. Patience and tommorow will prevail.

[RichG]

The old time hunters in Africa would harden their RB's with tin for greater penetration. I would think 20-1 or w.w. would work just fine with stout loads.

[Pukka Bundook]

Thing is, a hardened ball won't shoot the same in a rifled barrel.  It has to upset to some degree.

Yes, as Rich G says, the old African hands used a hardened ball, but shot them out of smoothbores so it didn't need to grip the rifling.
I know a patch helps, but a patch doesn't take the rifling on its own. 
Sounds like you need a smoothbore Pete, about musket bore  would do.......125 grs  2F......   

[longcruise]

What part of colorady are you in?  I have a bunch of wheel weights and a .530 mold.

The thing about WW is that it will cast a little larger than lead so you might need to play with patching. 

[OldMtnMan]

  Well, maybe a harder ball isn't such a good idea then. I've shot through the shoulder of charging bears with a CF gun before, but never tried it with a PRB. I was never sure it would work and wanted to get some opinions. I've hunted bear since the 50's, but this area is one of the toughest areas to get a bear. There's probably 250-300 hunters if you count the bow, muzzy, and rifle seasons and only one bear is taken each year. So, passing up a shot is really costly. The season is a whole month long and seeing one bear and passing on it is hard to take. Taking a shoulder shot would up my odds. I could just go to a CF gun, but I want to stay with my muzzleloader. Even though I am hunting in the rifle season.
 Maybe a better answer is to use a conical. It's still somewhat traditional if I use an all lead one.

Bigmon and longcruise...Thank you very much for your offers.

[Bigmon]

Are you talking black bear or the dreaded GRIZZ !!!!?
Do you have back up??
Best of luck

[OldMtnMan]

I'm just talking about black bear now. We don't have grizz in Colorado anymore. (so they say)

I wouldn't be shooting a PRB at a grizz. 


I use no backup other than a bowie knife. It makes me more careful with my shots.

[Bigmon]

I think I had asked you earlier if you ever read the book by Meshack Browning?  If not, I think you might really enjoy it, especially if you are a traditionalist.
Finally, you have that many black bear that you have so much experience with them? That is great.
The book ios called Fourty Years a Hunter, or something very similar.
Good hunting

[OldMtnMan]

I'll go look for it. Thanks.

To be honest and I always am. Bear hunting has always just been a fill in for me. My main animals are elk and muley's. I've retired from elk hunting starting this year. The meat from and elk at my age and crummy back have become too much in these mountains. I had a good run and i'll leave the elk for the youngsters.

 Considering this area is not that great for bear hunting. I'm considering retiring from that too. It's just too much hiking and here we have to not only bring out all the meat, but the head and hide too for inspection, That can be a chore when i'm miles from my Jeep.

 So, that leaves muley's. I can handle getting the meat out ok, because this is a good area for deer hunting and I don't usually need to go too far from my Jeep. Maybe a mile or two at the most. I'm seriously considering finishing out my hunting career just deer hunting. Not so bad really. I'm 75 and I hope to hunt another 5 years or so. Just deer hunting will help me do that. Now that i'm actually typed that. It sounds like a good plan and I think i'll do it. I can even lighten my load if I just hunt for deer. In  a .54 a load of 75gr of 2X should work good.

[Daryl]

I would use a .530" ball, with slight amount of tin, maybe 30:1, or 40:1. That should still load easy enough with a decent patch.

I personally would work up a load in the 85gr. to 120gr. range, likely closer to the higher number.  A .526" ball, made even harder like the old crimp-on WW would be better yet.

It would have no trouble penetrating both shoulders & may or may not exit - on a fairly large bear, say 300pounds or so.

[OldMtnMan]

Thanks, Daryl, but i've made up my mind to just be a deer hunter from now on. I've been thinking about it for a couple of years and it's time to do it.

[longcruise]

I've been weighing that same decision but I'll probably continue to hunt elk at least this year.

[ddoyle]

oldmtnman:

Good for you to still be out there at 75 and planning another decade of fun. Too bad you did not have a young, strong nieghbour with mouths to feed that you could rely on to share meat with.   Shame to have all that experience stuck at home for want of a hand packing the spoils. Heck never too late to adopt a needy teenager with a strong back LOL.

Maybe keep hunting but just lower expectations on harvest success and put in more time scouting so you can shoot close to the truck?  Who knows you might be fit and able to do alot of stuff until your in your 90s that is 15-20 years of healthy outside activity and good meat your givin up!

Edit:
Longcruise- What will you replace it with? Everytime a hunter stays out of the forest a little innocent angel looses her wings and sheds a tear.  keep walking.

[OldMtnMan]

The last few years I have had help. That's how I made it to 75. Well, he's moving away, so that option is gone. To be honest it was a pain. Sometimes he was busy and couldn't come out right away. This was the muzzleloader season which is mid Sept. It's a hot time of the year. I'd get impatient and start carrying it out myself. That's what I don't want to do anymore.

I'm fine just hunting for deer. That's what a lot of guys do all their life. I'll feel much better doing the whole hunt myself.

Funny you should mention me scouting more. I scout 250 days a year now. I love the mountains and want to be there all the time. If i'm not scouting i'll be hiking or fly fishing the creeks. Sometimes all three the same day. The pooch is always with me. Now i'll need to add more deer scouting.

[Sharpsman]

1-16 alloy will upset if hit in the backside with 100 grs. 2F powder!!

[Bigmon]

If I could still walk well enough, I'd never quit.  Look around you might find a better meat packer than you had.
You are in hunting heaven.  By fall you might have second thoughts.
Best of luck

[OldMtnMan]

I added them up and i've had 60 elk hunts in Colorado. I think I gave it a pretty good effort.

I'm good with deer hunts now. No regrets. Keep in mind I never felt good about getting help. Now i'm back to doing the whole hunt myself. As it should be.

[Pukka Bundook]

Good on you Pete.

I hope you do plenty more seasons.

R.

[longcruise]

Edit:
Longcruise- What will you replace it with? Everytime a hunter stays out of the forest a little innocent angel looses her wings and sheds a tear.  keep walking.

There's small game and deer.  Colorado basically allows one deer tag per year,  but there are ways to get two or even three.  I can bowhunt for a month and also hunt ML deer for nine days.  I'm still going to do elk this year but I'll rethink it each year.

I have plenty of help if needed to get meat out. 

[Ghillie]

A 20-1, lead tin mixture will bump up with black powder.  I shoot that mixture in my black powder cartridge rifle and all the bullets show engraving from the ogive back to the base even thought the nose is under bore size.  That mixture will bump up with black powder.  It even spreads when deer are shot with it.

[Hungry Horse]

PURE LEAD, plenty of powder,  get close, shoot at the end that has the head on it. And, don’t overthink this situation. Using what you are used to shooting is more likely to pay off, than going out in the woods with a bunch of stuff that hasn’t been hunted with before. I’ve had things work on the range that didn’t work worth a darn out in the woods.

 Hungry Horse

[Skirmisher]

I have killed several bison using pure lead, and a pure lead .535 ball will drop those critters just fine.  You can considerably toughen a ball and still maintain it's good shooting characteristics by adding 2 to 4 percent tin, by weight.  Don't use wheel weight metal.  You want the ball to expand, but not break apart.

[Daryl]

Even a total WW ball (brinel 12) will not break up going through a moose leg high up where it is over 3" thick, so any mix of WW and pure lead will not either.

Now, cast a ball from a brittle alloyed metal like Linotype at Brinel 22 or maybe Monotype at Brinel 28 and yes, those might fragment.

US WW metal is listed at brinel 9 with pure lead at 5.