Author Topic: Trigger guard forging question (Read 3619 times)

Mark Elliott · « **on:** February 20, 2018, 11:45:52 PM »

I have a new type of trigger guard to forge; one where the grip rail butts into the bow. I figure that I can rivet it it, but it then needs to be welded. I have not figured out how to hold the grip rail to hammer the inside of the bow opposite the grip rail to complete the weld. The whole thing needs to be done near the forge to maintain welding heat as long as possible. The piece would cool too much to move it to a vise. For those of you who have made such a guard, how do you do it?

David Rase · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2018, 11:52:26 PM »

Mark,
How about a little sketch, drawing or photo? I am having a hard time envisioning the layout. Maybe it is just me!
David

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2018, 12:03:24 AM »

I need to reproduce this guard.

photos uploader

rich pierce · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2018, 12:25:54 AM »

I hesitate to suggest cheating. That would be holding the rail in the vise and using a torch. For the life of me I’m not sure how they forge welded thin stuff like that.

bama · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2018, 12:41:25 AM »

Mark I normally silver solder that joint. If it is fit well you hardly be able to see the solder in the joint. I have seen originals soldered and braised. They may have been forge welded but I would probably burn up 50 lbs of iron before I got a decent joint.

David Rase · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2018, 12:59:19 AM »

I am with Jim on this one. Most guards I have looked at with that particular joint have been riveted and then forge brazed.
David

louieparker · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2018, 01:35:42 AM »

Thats an Alfred Gross rifle. I have made two or three of those. Even with an Eye on and a magnified view you can't be sure how he did it. No braze shows.. As I recall I made a square stud on the grip rail and a tight fit to the bow bradded and then brazed....Louie

mark esterly · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2018, 01:53:35 AM »

i'm not a blacksmith so this is only a question for thought. would it work to have the inside of the bow held on the anvil horn and hammer the outside of the bow?

louieparker · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2018, 01:59:03 AM »

Mark if you are doing a copy of a Gross there is a detail on that guard that don't show. All that I have seen has it.. Where the front of the bow goes in the wood on the inside of the bow is a small extension about 1/8 or a bit less .. This is on level with the front extension . A step is filed in the trigger plate and this extension fills it.. I don't recall seeing that on any rifle but Gross... Louie

flinchrocket · « **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:19:23 AM »

If the grip rail and rear extension are two separate pieces it might be possible to make a die to put the grip rail in vertically while it is still square and before the rear part of the bow is rounded. Cut a square shoulder on the end of the grip rail and a square hole in the bow. First heat to peen the rail to the bow, then it will stay together to heat again to weld. After the grip rail is welded then you can work on the extension. That is how I would go about it. Make the die so the end of the rail will bottom out with about an 1/8 sticking out below the shoulder. A two piece die could be made to fit in the hardy hole on your anvil. I have thought about those guards for some time and that would be my first method to try. After the grip rail is welded it would be easy to weld on the rear extension and shape the rear of the bow. Something to think about at least.

flinchrocket · « **Reply #10 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:26:08 AM »

Louie is that step your talking about to hold the front of the triggerplate up.

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #11 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:29:39 AM »

I may just rivet and braze. For those of you that braze, how do you apply the brass? When I would braze a grip rail to a bow the normal way, I would put a bit of brass shim stock in the joint before I rivet it. Does that sound reasonable in this case? That would leave a visible line of brass, though.

louieparker · « **Reply #12 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:53:33 AM »

Flinchrocket , Yes . The little extension fits in the filed step down in the trigger plate and is flush with the trigger plate.. LP

John Archer · « **Reply #13 on:** February 21, 2018, 02:59:10 AM »

Mark,

I riveted and brazed....I cheated and used a torch. It could easily be done in a forge. Use a square hole to rivet into and your piece won't move in the coal fire. The pics clearly show the step Louie referred to. In this case it holds the front of the trigger bar down. The braze does not show inside or outside the bow...aging and tarnishing has made it virtually disappear.

jerrywh · « **Reply #14 on:** February 21, 2018, 03:12:38 AM »

Mark.
Why does it have to be welded? If you cut a square hole in the bow and rivet the grip rail in the square hole cold it won't even show if done well. I have filled dovetails in barrels with inserts cold and even the guy who watched me do it can't find the spot now. There is not much force there to make it fail. You can rivet it with the bow opened so as to get a good hard series of blows in the spot.
When I forged welded a pan on a lockplate I did it with a special anvil right in the forge because it cooled too fast to get to a vise. I heated the anvil up to about 800 F. first. In your case you would have to male a fixture to hold the grip rail in when hot and weld with the bow opened.

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #15 on:** February 21, 2018, 05:27:19 AM »

John,

Thanks for the photos and advice.

Mark

B.Barker · « **Reply #16 on:** February 21, 2018, 05:32:34 AM »

If any were welded, I would say they did it with the back of the bow straight and unbent. It would make it much easier to do and bend the back end of the after welding. That said, I always braise mine.

David R. Pennington · « **Reply #17 on:** February 21, 2018, 03:44:56 PM »

Mark you can put the shim in to braze or wrap a piece of wire around the joint. If I were going to weld I would probably leave extra stock on the material and then finish shaping after the weld. Sometimes you have to think backwards on these things. I have used heat sinks (big chunk of metal) in the fire to protect smaller areas of a piece while bringing to welding heats. Either way let us know how it turns out please.

Tim Crosby · « **Reply #18 on:** February 21, 2018, 05:26:22 PM »

Mark, Be sure and show us what you come up with.

Thanks, Tim

Clint · « **Reply #19 on:** February 22, 2018, 05:33:28 AM »

I have done a huge amount of iron work and I would not ever consider welding a right angle joint like that. The biggest favor you could do yourself would be to avoid steel and make the parts out of wrought iron. The parts that John Archer shows are perfect. A square riveted joint going through the bow makes perfect sense from a blacksmith point of view and the tenon will hammer down nicely if made of iron. I have made and repaired dozens of 18th cent door latches with these little square tenons and can attest to the strength and longevity. Don't overthink this stuff but think like a blacksmith, easy, fast, secure and repeatable, like three or four trigger guards a day.

Gaeckle · « **Reply #20 on:** February 22, 2018, 08:49:26 AM »

It would be great if somebody did a tutorial on this, step by step, good clear pictures.

Greg Pennell · « **Reply #21 on:** February 22, 2018, 03:44:49 PM »

Plus one on the tutorial...

Greg

gunlock · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2018, 04:04:46 PM »

I save the brass filings and mix with flux and use as what is call 'spelter' when I brass braze.

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Author Topic: Trigger guard forging question (Read 3619 times)

gunlock