Author Topic: Pan shapes - why did they get narrower over time?  (Read 1927 times)

Offline Marcruger

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Pan shapes - why did they get narrower over time?
« on: February 23, 2018, 04:50:41 AM »
Hi Gents and Ladies,

In my limited knowledge, it appears that pans became narrower as time went on.  Perhaps just selected ones, but that is my impression.  If this is so, why did the pans get narrower?  It seems to defeat the purpose of giving powder exposure to flying sparks.  Here are examples:



Wide and early.




Narrower and later.

Just curious.  Best wishes and God Bless,   Marc

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Pan shapes - why did they get narrower over time?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2018, 04:59:18 AM »
Well for starters, you are comparing a military musket lock to a very late period waterproof sporting lock. If you compare locks that were designed for the same purpose, I suspect the pan sizes will be more uniform in size.

  Hungry Horse

Offline P.Bigham

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Re: Pan shapes - why did they get narrower over time?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2018, 05:14:53 AM »
Good question.  Maybe quality of powder?
" not all who wander are lost"

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Pan shapes - why did they get narrower over time?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2018, 05:19:07 AM »
I agree Hungry Horse.  Still, notice that the later pan appears to be "cut away" from the fence and the bridle for the frizzen.  Was it for style?  It just seems like a wider pan would give a better chance at reliable ignition. 

Best wishes,   Marc

Offline Carl Young

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Re: Pan shapes - why did they get narrower over time?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2018, 05:30:09 AM »
Quote
...notice that the later pan appears to be "cut away" from the fence and the bridle for the frizzen.  Was it for style?

The intent was to make the pan less subject to water collecting/condensing and running down into the pan, wetting the priming charge.
Carl
Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses. -Juvenal

Offline smart dog

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Re: Pan shapes - why did they get narrower over time?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2018, 02:21:08 PM »
Hi,
There are at least 2 reasons of which I am aware. One was to concentrate the priming powder near the vent hole enabling more reliable ignition and use of less priming powder.  Second, the small pan was more easily isolated from the fence so water was not directed by the fence into the pan.  Also keep in mind civilian locks (and to a lesser extent military) trended smaller in all dimensions during the late 18th and early 19th centuries. 

dave
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Pan shapes - why did they get narrower over time?
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2018, 04:23:26 PM »
The water that will spoil your hunting trip is the drop that runs off the 45 degree flat
above the pan.There were some locks that were made in such a way that partially
helped with water run off.
.













































































To quote Robert Held in the American Gun "TINY,gold plated corrosion proof,sure fire pans in
the old man's 25 year old Manton Double".The reason we have the marvelous relics to admire,try to copy
and use today was the obstructionist goals of the flintlock advocates who were trying to forestall the
percussion system then making advances into the hunting fields.Also they claimed that war using the
percussion system would create casualties beyond number by more certain ignition of powder.
These little locks with their powerful springs,linked to the tumbler that that when released would slam fire into the tiny
priming charge. The big military locks more or less dumped the fire into the pan and there IS a noticeable
difference in these locks.I well recall Tom Dawson's 16 bore Manton whose ignition was abrupt and as Tom
said, "It feels like the cock is kicking back under the gun". Another less thought of thing was the little sporting
locks were more apt to fire in a strong wind.
The water that will wreck a hunting trip with these guns was the drop or two that ran down off the 45 degree
angle above the pan.

Bob Roller


















Offline Marcruger

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Re: Pan shapes - why did they get narrower over time?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2018, 05:08:34 PM »
Thank you folks!  Now I know.  Sometimes the obvious eludes me. 


Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Pan shapes - why did they get narrower over time?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2018, 08:03:48 PM »
The water that will spoil your hunting trip is the drop that runs off the 45 degree flat
above the pan.There were some locks that were made in such a way that partially
helped with water run off.

My LAST post was much longer and is widely separated from this one. How did this happen?
Bob Roller
.






To quote Robert Held in the American Gun "TINY,gold plated corrosion proof,sure fire pans in
the old man's 25 year old Manton Double".The reason we have the marvelous relics to admire,try to copy
and use today was the obstructionist goals of the flintlock advocates who were trying to forestall the
percussion system then making advances into the hunting fields.Also they claimed that war using the
percussion system would create casualties beyond number by more certain ignition of powder.
These little locks with their powerful springs,linked to the tumbler that that when released would slam fire into the tiny
priming charge. The big military locks more or less dumped the fire into the pan and there IS a noticeable
difference in these locks.I well recall Tom Dawson's 16 bore Manton whose ignition was abrupt and as Tom
said, "It feels like the cock is kicking back under the gun". Another less thought of thing was the little sporting
locks were more apt to fire in a strong wind.
The water that will wreck a hunting trip with these guns was the drop or two that ran down off the 45 degree
angle above the pan.

Bob Roller
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:13:40 PM by rich pierce »

Offline Pennsylvania Dutchman

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Re: Pan shapes - why did they get narrower over time?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2018, 08:21:31 PM »
Bob, I thought maybe you posted some pictures that didn't load :o
Mark
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 08:22:06 PM by Pennsylvania Dutchman »
Mark Poley

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Pan shapes - why did they get narrower over time?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2018, 09:03:45 PM »
Bob, I thought maybe you posted some pictures that didn't load :o
Mark

Mark'
No pictures.I suppose it was another electrobooger that escaped.

Bob Roller