early Forsythe patent percussion (Zuendpille) smoothbore "rifle"

[Excelsior1929]

Hello

I got the days a very rare piece that I do not want to withhold from you.
It is probably a gun from the period around 1840 but I do not know exactly.
For the time it has a very small caliber of only 7.8mm
If any of you have any information about the piece I would be happy.

Regards Arno

[Bill Paton]

Hello Arno,
Very interesting gun you show here. When the ignition cover is open, does it look like loose detonating powder was used in it, or some type of contained detonating powder? I have looked in my reference book “Early Percussion Firearms” by Lewis Winant (1959) and do not find this kind of firing mechanism, even in the section on “European Followers of Forsyth”. There are “tube locks” that are similar, but they open as a flintlock frizzen opens, and not by pivoting to the side as yours seems to do.

Might you show images of the system open, and in better lighting with a plane background? Thanks for posting this gun.

Bill Paton

[Feltwad]

I have seen many of Forsythe patents  but not this one  which makes me wonder if this was by Forsythe if so it should have a number .The flat  nosed hammer suggest that it is early percussion the device on the breech with a sliding lid and a firing pin could be to  hold on a early type of iron top hat cap  so when the hammer falls it strikes the pin which hits the cap and ignites the gun .These early iron top hat caps could be refilled with fulminate and reused .That is my theory but I could be miles away with the holder open would give a better explanation
Feltwad

[Bill Paton]

Feltwad,
I have been corresponding with Arno about other subjects, and he sent me a photo of the ignition system open on this gun. It actually unscrews and is removed for priming. There is a firing pin in the primer, and detonating powder is put in the hole after the primer is unscrewed. When replaced, the firing pin can detonate the primer right next to the main charge.

The gun is a German knock-off and not a Forsyth.

Bill Paton

[Feltwad]

Thanks Bill
 I thought it was German I now see how it works with loose fulminate is there a device that just throws a giving quantity I would say too much fulminate can have dangerous results.
Feltwad

[Excelsior1929]

Hello

I have here two more pictures showing the open "system" and the only brand on the run.
A triangle with a "G" in it.
I could not find any information about it.
All parts of this weapon are marked with a "1" - even the lock inside and the butt plate.






I found some links here where the same type of rifle is concerned. There it is described as early Forsythe.
But I have no idea what it really is. Maybe someone of you knows something about the brand on the barrel

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=256429&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1
      (the eighth contribution from above )

http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/auktion/hhm53.pl?f=NR&c=61782&t=temartic_S_D&db=kat53_s.txt

http://www.kesslerauktionen.ch/Kataloge/Katalog/Katalog18.pdf      ( number 18114 )


The guns from the links are thought to be from Belgium, but the ELG is missing. I do not think it's from Belgium


regards Arno

[OldSouthRelics]

Arno,

Thank you for sharing. Quite an interesting "rifle". I'm learning a great deal from this thread and hope it continues.

If there are no comparable examples, perhaps it was a working prototype, considering the number 1 markings. I don't see the point in numbering the parts if the maker did not intend to produce more, or was perhaps simultaneously working on multiple prototypes.

Bill,

Thank you for explaining how this firearm would be fired. I was quite curious.

Regards,

Bob