Author Topic: Building an English Fowler FINALLY FINISHED  (Read 46743 times)

Offline smart dog

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2018, 03:25:25 PM »
I love threads like this too, and this one is excellent so far.  I was given a Minion - Kevin - by my Grandaughter Maddy.  It never occurred to me to actually employ him - 'til now.
Dave, there was a gentleman looking for that standing breech from TOW, if you are interested in parting with it.  I broke up the hook plug and standing breech to create the standing breech for my A. Verner build, and have the hooked plug available.  between the two of us, we could set him up.
Keep this rolling...lots of fun!

Hi Taylor,
Thanks for the note.  Unfortunately, that standing breech is shaped and installed on a barrel for a late English sporting rifle I am working on concurrently.  It would not work with your hook anyway because I thinned the vertical plate to 3/16" to reduce its unnecessary mass.  I contacted the gentleman to whom you refer.  It is frustrating right now because so many cast steel parts are unavailable including replacement lock parts.

dave
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Offline Robby

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2018, 04:10:04 PM »
My Grandson left one of those minions here on his last visit. I texted my daughter to let him know I have it, she did and replied that he said its okay, I can play with it if I want to, Hah! Can't wait to see your gun evolve Dave, thanks. Lots of great show and tell going on around here lately!!!!
Robby
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2018, 03:32:36 AM »
Hi,
I haven't been able to get back to work in the shop until yesterday. The right standing breech is not readily available for this gun. None sold by TOW or any other similar supplier are the right shape, have the right sighting grooves, or have sufficient "hump" in the shape. I ordered some correct ones from TRS but that will take a while.  I decided not to wait and just made one.  I simply welded a tang at right angle to a flat steel plate. Grinding, filing and drilling did the rest. 

The breech is modeled after the one on the original fowler show at the beginning of this thread.  It is a real privilege to recreate a part that is 250 years old and clearly shows the little sophisticated details that aid function, form, and inletting. For example, the hole in the plate for the hook is narrower at the top tapering evenly on both sides to a wider bottom. The hook is shaped the same way and as it is seated into the breech, it slides in easily then snugs up into the taper so that when fully positioned, there is absolutely no play up and down or side to side.


I always make my hooks from the fitted breech plugs that come with my barrels. I just cut the tangs off and file the hook. The shape of the hook is very simple (examples of originals shown below) and not very deep.  That allows the rear lock bolt to clear the back of the hook unlike on the deep "Thompson Center" style hooks found on most modern made hooked breeches.


The shape of the tang is the standard "shouldered point".

Before inletting the breech, I file quite a bit of draft on the edges so the tang is snugging into the inlet and does not risk chipping out wood when it has the be removed for more fitting. Another detail you see on the originals is that the shoulders of the point have filed undercuts (shown in the photo below) also so it is easier to inlet them tight against the wood. Also note the lug on the bottom for the cross pin anchoring the bottom of the breech into the stock. 


Next, I will inlet the hook into the stock, then solder the standing breech to the barrel (you could use glue too), clean up all the bottom and side flats so they are flush with the barrel, and then inlet the breech.

Well, that will do for now.  More to come.

dave
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 03:39:18 AM by smart dog »
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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2018, 05:07:33 AM »
Dave,

Very neat, clean job, especially on the weld! No joint visible. Was this an oxy-acetylene weld? Did you file the angled cut to receive the upper hook in the standing breech before you welded on the tang? Seems like filing this cut would be pretty tough with the tang  in the way.

Gregg

Offline Curtis

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2018, 08:15:29 AM »
Great job on the breech and the hook Dave.  I am glad you showed us the details of the tapered hook and corresponding hole in the breech.  It is little details like those that demonstrate the genius of the old builders an the thought that went into doing thing better.

Curtis
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 08:15:49 AM by Curtis »
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Offline Justin Urbantas

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2018, 09:25:05 AM »
do you think you could use a thick angle iron for the breech?

Offline smart dog

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2018, 02:44:13 PM »
Dave,

Very neat, clean job, especially on the weld! No joint visible. Was this an oxy-acetylene weld? Did you file the angled cut to receive the upper hook in the standing breech before you welded on the tang? Seems like filing this cut would be pretty tough with the tang  in the way.

Gregg
Thanks Gregg,
Yes, I cut the opening for the hook and rounded off the top edge of the opening where the hook fits first before welding on the tang.  I use an Oxy-Acetylene torch with a #0 tip and mild steel rod.  The trick is to first tack the pieces together with the torch then file a deep "V" groove along the joint and fill that groove with weld. That way the joint remains hidden even if you file down into it a little ways.

dave
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 02:57:42 PM by smart dog »
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2018, 02:50:55 PM »
Great job on the breech and the hook Dave.  I am glad you showed us the details of the tapered hook and corresponding hole in the breech.  It is little details like those that demonstrate the genius of the old builders an the thought that went into doing thing better.

Curtis
Hi Curtis,
Thanks.  That is what this thread is all about, showing some of those details.

dave
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2018, 02:52:36 PM »
do you think you could use a thick angle iron for the breech?
Hi Justin,
Yes you could used angle iron but it would have to be very thick and it is much easier to cut and shape the hole for the hook if the tang is not attached.

dave
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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2018, 05:40:04 PM »
Very nice, very tidy and very right work, Dave.

Lovely job.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2018, 11:00:17 PM »
A photo of the back of the standing breech without the hook in place would help folks understand the filing that is required for the hook to seat properly.  And how this is best done prior to welding on the tang.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2018, 02:43:15 AM »
Hi Folks and thanks for looking.
Taylor the standing breech is soldered on the barrel for now but here is a picture showing 2 original breeches on the left and you can see how the top edge of the socket is simply rounded over to match the hook.  Nothing fancy.

dave

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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2018, 05:36:10 AM »
I’d hate to have to saw and file that after forging the right angle bend.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2018, 05:16:57 PM »
This actually requires chiseling if working from a single non-fabricated piece.  I fashioned a chisel the right width and the process went pretty well.

Jim

Offline smart dog

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2018, 10:16:06 PM »
Hi,
The standing breech is inlet. Some folks seem intimidated by inletting standing breeches but they are not really very difficult.  I first inlet the hook. 


Then I solder the standing breech to the barrel and inlet it.  I first cut the space for the face plate including the little mortice on the bottom for the cross pin lug.  Then I can insert the breech and barrel straight down onto the stock and trace the tang with a sharp pencil.  I then stab in the outline just on the inside edge of the pencil line.  With sharp tools and a little patience, it goes pretty easily.


Next up is the ramrod groove and hole.

dave

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Offline SingleMalt

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2018, 11:54:46 PM »
That's nice work, Dave.  How much of the "hump" did you file off if the standing breech?  It's hard to tell from the pic.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2018, 01:29:59 AM »
Hi Wayne,
I won't file off very much because I want a prominent hump for this gun.  When I blend the wood and hump together it will have a very graceful look.

dave
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Offline yip

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2018, 12:47:45 AM »
 smartdog; whats the correct proceedure for inlaying the butt plate? did em for rifles no problem but the fancy comb is a little tricky.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2018, 01:35:49 AM »
Hi Yip,
I will get to that fairly soon.  You might want to look at Davec's current thread on his blunderbus.

dave
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Offline Mr. Bubbles

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2018, 03:05:25 AM »
Nice looking figure in that piece of wood.  Is that Goby's "Presentation Grade" or something else?

Offline smart dog

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2018, 01:50:21 AM »
Hi,
I am sorry this is going slowly but I am dealing with some health issues that really slow me down.  I had some flu-like illness that lasted almost 2 weeks and then I came down with shingles.  It attacked my face, right ear, and inside my mouth.  I am healing fast but I fatigue easily, am uncomfortable most of the time, and I am at risk of making stupid mistakes because I am just not up to par.  Anyway, I am doing better and spent some time working on the fowler.  I cut the ramrod groove and drilled the hole.  On this gun, that required some preparation and accurate measuring because the ramrod groove and hole are not parallel with the bore of the barrel, rather it is parallel (approximately) with the bottom of the barrel.  Therefore the web of wood between the barrel channel and the ramrod groove and hole is 5/64" at the muzzle and about the same at the breech.  I used my router table to cut the groove so the bottom of the stock, which contacted the router table surface, had to be planed so the surface was parallel to the ramrod rather than the bore of the barrel.  That required good drawn plans transferred to the stock.  The groove and hole are 5/16" and I drilled the hole in the usual way with a brace and bit and long 5/16" ramrod drill.  Careful planning and going slowly, checking multiple times, resulted in success.  The result will be a very slim forestock the bottom of which, tapers from the end of the trigger guard to the muzzle in a very elegant fashion and copies the original fowler I am using as a model.

Next is inletting the barrel keys.  I think this is a task that gives a lot of folk's heartburn.  With the right technique, it is not hard to do.  The first step is to inlet the barrel lugs into the stock.  This was easy, however the thin web of wood between the barrel and ramrod will result in the bottom of the lug showing in the ramrod channel.  That is how my original gun is made so I am not concerned.  Some folks object but I would rather have a very slim fowler than worry about lugs showing in the ramrod channel.




The key slots must be accurately positioned so it is important that they are precisely marked on the sides of the stock.  Prior to doing this task I make sure the sides and top of the barrel channel are squared up.  Then I measure the diameter of the barrel at the location of a key, measure that distance down on both sides of the stock. Next, using the barrel bands, I mark lines on both sides of the stock showing the width of the slot. In the photo below the slot is cut but is shows the marking lines.

Once marked, and checked, and rechecked, I punch 3 horizontal lined up holes into both sides of the stock that are a little under sized for the barrel key.  Using my drill press, I drill those holes from both sides of the stock.  I then use a chisel made from a flat needle file to cut wood away between the 3 holes.  The file tip is shaped and sharpened like a skew chisel.  You have to be gentle because the file is brittle but with a sharp edge, it will cut through the wood quickly.  Once I break into the inlet for the barrel lug, I switch sides and do the same from the other side.  Then to widen the slot, which is undersized, I use a piece of fret saw blade that has been broken off to a short length and the end ground to a point. It is placed in a handle used for X-Acto blades and oriented so it cuts on the pull stroke.  I then use the saw to cut the slot wider.

Once cut to the correct width, I use the flat needle file chisel to clean up the slot a bit before burning in the final fit.  I shape the end of a barrel key into a chisel point, hold it with pliers, and heat it with a mini torch.  When it is a bit beyond blue, I insert it into the slot and allow it to burn its way into the stock. Don't wiggle it, just let it burn in.  On British guns, barrel keys are inserted from the side opposite the lock.  Always.  I don't care if on some Hawken or American guns they are inserted from the lock side. On British guns the heads are on the side plate side. Burn the key through the stock from the direction they will be inserted.  That will assure the slot opening on the lock side does not get burned wider than the key and any slop on the side of insertion is hidden under the head of the key.

If you are careful, a perfect barrel key slot is the result.

More to come.

dave         

« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 02:03:31 PM by smart dog »
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Online James Rogers

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2018, 02:29:28 AM »
Dave,
So sorry you have had such a hard time. I've never had shingles but have loved ones who have had them and I know it's not a cake walk.
I know everyone is very appreciative all the effort you have put into sharing this information.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 03:29:15 AM by James Rogers »

Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2018, 03:10:22 AM »
Shingles suck. Everyone over 50 should talk to their Doctor about getting a vaccination.
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Offline Daryl

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2018, 05:29:14 AM »
IIRC form when my Mom got her vaccination, it was over $200.00, but still - small price to pay to dodge the misery of the blight.
Daryl

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Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Building an English Fowler
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2018, 05:34:48 AM »
I had shingles in my early 30s. I was quite miserable for some time.
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