Author Topic: ENGLISH or not?  (Read 2712 times)


Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2018, 05:51:48 PM »
Have to agree, less than impressed. Too bad too, it would nice if there was a decent production flintlock double out there. Plain would be fine from my perspective.
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2018, 07:01:50 PM »
That is horrendous. It's way too chunky. What the heck is that nasty stuff on the wrist, doesn't even remotely resemble checkering. ::) Take a look at the lock screws, one at the BACK :o and one at the front. Didn't they even look at an antique before they attempted this.
 All that being said, I'm sure a whole bunch of guys will go apey for a gun like this.
www.fowlingguns.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Strong Bear

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2018, 07:32:18 PM »
I would love to have a flintlock double but that atrocious thing is not anything I would be interested in. :( :o :D

Dave
"Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security."
~ Benjamin Franklin

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2018, 08:30:23 PM »
I would love to have a flintlock double but that atrocious thing is not anything I would be interested in. :( :o :D

Dave
I saw two antique French SXS flint guns at a gunshow recently for around $1500 each. Shootable condition.
www.fowlingguns.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Daryl

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2018, 09:14:42 PM »
That is retchingly horrible.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Strong Bear

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2018, 09:21:23 PM »
I must go to the wrong gun shows.  I have seen a few flintlocks at shows but no doubles.

Dave
"Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security."
~ Benjamin Franklin

Offline WadePatton

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2018, 09:31:31 PM »
But the ad copy says it's wonderful.  You're supposed to read and believe.  Oh the negative nellies...   ::)  ;D

Beautiful reproduction of a flintlock side by side shotgun of the end of the 1700ís.

Elegant and sophisticated, it finds its place in a typical hunting context  even though it is exquisitely appreciable from an aesthetic point of view.
Hold to the Wind

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2018, 10:56:33 PM »
This, and other examples of modern companies attempting to cash in on historic firearms' current popularity makes me wonder...with so many good examples to emulate, why do modern companies try to reinvent the wheel?  Their departure from important architectural elements, such as lock panels, lock design, etc., simply ruins the whole gun.  What are they asking for this one?  Though I have no idea, I'll bet it is less than 20% of what a custom builder will want.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Feltwad

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2018, 11:05:38 PM »
A poor example of a English  sxs flintlock shotgun  there is no comparison to a original but it will cost  nearly or has much has a original, these factory repros  are getting so cheap looking
Feltwad

A stand of Originals


« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 11:10:38 PM by Feltwad »

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2018, 11:39:10 PM »
This, and other examples of modern companies attempting to cash in on historic firearms' current popularity makes me wonder...with so many good examples to emulate, why do modern companies try to reinvent the wheel?  Their departure from important architectural elements, such as lock panels, lock design, etc., simply ruins the whole gun.  What are they asking for this one?  Though I have no idea, I'll bet it is less than 20% of what a custom builder will want.

Rather underwhelming to say the least.Production expedients have made deep inroads
in the recreation of historic guns.

Bob Roller

Offline Robby

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2018, 12:13:11 AM »
If Jim Kibler can start from scratch and make a repeatable kit gun that is not only historically correct but just plain beautiful in its own right, it seem that a company with all the assets of Pedersoli, both financial and human, could come up with something that doesn't resemble some kind of carnival giveaway. Sheesh!!!!
Robby
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We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline Maalsral

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2018, 02:37:19 AM »
Who out there are building custom flint doubles?
Mark Thomas

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2018, 04:43:16 PM »
Who out there are building custom flint doubles?

One problem in the USA is the lack of quality locks for double guns.
The Italians have great industrial capability and do a good job on
most of the historic reproductions.I have had two Sharps rifles,an
`1874 sporting rifle and a repro of a Sharps submitted to the US**
government for field trials in the 1970's AND a fine copy of an S&W***
44 Russian single action that I wish I had kept.
When it comes to fine English guns* of the muzzle loading types,
these are hard to copy.Pedersoli has the Gibbs long range rifle and
it looks good and feels good to me.The early ones had a deficiency
in the lock that required the hammer to be pulled back beyond the
normal full cock position to get the "fly"to release and then the
hammer could be lowered to full cock. Later production got rid
of this problem and I made kits to change the early ones to proper
 function.
Bob Roller

*Lots of hand work to get these even close to being "right".
*** Made by Uberti
** Both Sharps were Pedersoli's

Offline Cajun72

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2018, 07:35:07 PM »
Feltwad those doubles are awesome, no comparison to a copy
Not all those that wander are lost!
J.R.R Tolkien

Online smylee grouch

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2018, 08:25:33 PM »
Great looking stand Feltwad. Thanks for sharing.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2018, 08:37:23 PM »
In spite of it's deficiencies, the Pedersoli offering is miles ahead of T/C's products, IMHO.  With lots of research material readily available, you'd think that an American company could produce an iconic American rifle that at least looked like a Hawken.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2018, 11:11:46 PM »
In spite of it's deficiencies, the Pedersoli offering is miles ahead of T/C's products, IMHO.  With lots of research material readily available, you'd think that an American company could produce an iconic American rifle that at least looked like a Hawken.

The American makers of production rifles are oriented to the fastest possible
return on their investments and historical accuracy is not part of the plan to
market these guns. The Hawken name was used because of it's history here
in America and the fact the guns bore no resemblance to any St.Louis rifle
was no problem and fast production was all important.

Bob Roller

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2018, 07:30:03 PM »
I understand all that Bob, but it's just wrong.  I don't see Pedersoli claiming to be recreating a "Manton", just to sell guns.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2018, 05:46:14 AM »
Feltwad,

Under your own heading, I'd love to see some detailed photos of some of these doubles!!

Richard.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2018, 03:40:23 AM »
Richard:  you know that if you click on the image, it will enlarge - twice!  Lovely doubles Feltwad.

Taylor
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2018, 04:39:42 AM »
Taylor,

Yes we can blow them up, but I want to see them dissected as well!  The guts, and close -ups of the finials and such.  Any little interesting bits...

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2018, 07:06:08 PM »
I agree - details details...  the feathers make the bird!  Perhaps a new thread?
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2018, 07:39:01 PM »
I understand all that Bob, but it's just wrong.  I don't see Pedersoli claiming to be recreating a "Manton", just to sell guns.

It's an amoral concept here. No right or wrong,just do it.It IS wrong and
I want nothing to do with such a concept.A good reputation is more valuable
than gold and once established will bring the gold among other good things like
friends of like mind.

Bob Roller

Offline WadePatton

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Re: ENGLISH or not?
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2018, 11:02:36 PM »
I understand all that Bob, but it's just wrong.  I don't see Pedersoli claiming to be recreating a "Manton", just to sell guns.

It's an amoral concept here. No right or wrong,just do it.It IS wrong and
I want nothing to do with such a concept.A good reputation is more valuable
than gold and once established will bring the gold among other good things like
friends of like mind.

Bob Roller

Certainly and many good men/women are doing such in our small circles, but the BigCoInc. Mentality is production SPEED/Efficiency for greatest profits and they make these things like automobiles or toaster ovens or skateboards.

Because the market for them is the great heaving  Masses of "OH Gosh that's too high!" market. 

WE in the know, know. And as I see it, it's our job to educate our markets if we are to have them. Kudos to our tiny segment of population of purists, historians, craftsmen, and supporters for keeping Early America somewhat alive and represented. 

This ALR was fundamental in getting me hooked and digging for more.  I did not have any relatives or books to rely on-else I might have started many years sooner.

AND even those "horrible" production guns did give me (and thousands of others) a hint of my future with the past but long before I really "got it".  So long as they can sell their stuff for the margins they must have, then they'll keep cranking it out. The double edge effect: cutting up history with one side, getting new folks involved such that they might learn better with the other.

It's wonderfully ironic that this digital format, as well as CNC-machinery are now responsible for bringing lots of new blood into our fold. Thanks to ALR and Jim Kibler specifically for that. 


« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 11:03:48 PM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind