John Thomas' Rifle 526-529 Rifles of Colonial America V 2 Request for info

[jharchery]

Hello,

I would like to create an interpretation of this rifle before the "improvements" were made by Durs Egg for a fundraiser at Jerusalem Mill in Maryland. Does anyone know of any other information on it, such as additional photographs, plans, reproductions, etc. other than the Shumway book?

I understand this would be conjecture, but any thoughts on which would be the most correct lock and side plate, as the originals are gone.

Additionally, according to Shumway: "John Bivens has suggested that James Robertson of Spartenbug Co., S.C., may have been the maker." Any references available for his work?

Thanks,

John



Thanks.

[rich pierce]

When doing something like this project I consider not only the specific original but also that the maker probably used a variety of locks even in the course of a single year.  If you could make either fit, the Chambers Early Ketland or Round Faced English would be where I would start.  Something along the lines of the lock on the great Newcomer rifle RCA 73 appeals to me.

[Elnathan]

The John Thomas rifle was housed in the Windsor Castle at the time Shumway was writing. It would probably be worth contacting them to ask if there is any other information available: https://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection

It might also be worth writing to the Royal Armouries, too, since as they manage the National Firearms Centre it may also fall under their purview.

https://royalarmouries.org/about-us/what-we-do/research/nfc

I'd suggest a Chamber's Virginia, as I believe that it represents a high-end export quality lock. The John Thomas rifle looks to me like a pretty nice rifle, but the Chambers English lock might be a little too nice for a colonial gun. OTOH, the only other possible Revolutionary period SC rifle I am aware of has a flat-faced English lock with a sliding safety, so so maybe the English Roundfaced or even an early Ketland made into a then-high-fashion flatfaced English lock (see this thread: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=47308.0) might be possible after all.

I'm glad to see someone taking an interest in this gun. Please post updates.

[jharchery]

Thanks for the responses. The more I look the more excited I am about the project. It is a shame that it was altered as it has fine architecture and must have been even more beautiful with the original lock and side plate.

I will post my progress and reach out to the organizations you reference, Elnathan.

[vanu]

John,
The Museum of the Revolution in Yorktown, Virginia (not NPS) currently has the Thomas Rifle on loan, if in the vicinity, would definitely be worth calling to see if it is still on exhibit.
Bruce

[jharchery]

Outstanding! Thanks so much for the information. I'll get down there ASAP to check it out.

[Elnathan]

Many years ago I visited one of the museums in Yorktown - don't recall which one - and they forbade photography. I've taken to carrying a sketch pad, pencil, and eraser with me to gun shows to capture stuff the camera doesn't, and, if the Museum of the American Revolution doesn't allow photography, that might be a way to capture details not shown in RCA.

I might have to take a trip down there myself.

[jharchery]

Good to know. At least I will be able to see the nose cap detail, thumb piece and what material the wire inlay is made of, all things that are not plain in the Shumway book.

[blienemann]

John,

If you search for "John Thomas flintlock rifle" on the first link Elnathan gives for the Royal Collection, there are two color photos of this rifle on their website, and this is all they have for photos.  You can then enlarge and get a pretty good look at its current condition.  The photos plus a careful read of George Shumway's description are as close as we can get - plus looking at the rifle on display, if you can.  I've contacted these folks regarding their Oerter smooth rifle, and they have no more photos or notes than what is on their website now.  Unfortunately they cannot find the photos and records they had in 1980, and shared with George.

Egg replaced the forend with walnut - so no forend cap remaining.  The wire around patchbox is silver, you can see this in photo and George mentioned that in his description.  Egg replaced the original double triggers with a single set trigger, slid the trigger guard forward, removed sideplate and spliced in wood, supposedly browned the barrel but it and lock are now bright, made a new ramrod and so on.  The rifle may have been damaged - as he straightened the barrel and replaced the forend, etc.? The barrel now is held by keys with heads.  On the Oerter smooth rifle, Egg put some sort of clear finish over the areas he disturbed, and perhaps over the entire rifle.  He may have done that here, as well.  But the color you see on the remaining curly maple on their website is probably close to the original, as Egg does not appear to have stained or messed with the wood.

If you can enlarge the photos and guess at size of wood spliced in around the new lock, it may give an idea of the size of the original lock, which George says was larger than Egg's replacement.  Good luck and please share what you learn and what you do.  Bob

[blienemann]

John, a few further thoughts here.  Looking at those two photos on the Royal Collection website, the buttplate and trigger guard with long bow for double triggers look just like a classic early Dickert rifle.  Interesting.  There are probably a variety of sources, and Jack Brooks has a buttplate and guard patterned after a great Dickert that would work well here.  Looking at double triggers from the period might give you ideas.  The trigger guard would slide back for double triggers. 

A lower buttstock moulding remains behind the guard - it's hard to tell if Egg removed it around or under the guard when he moved it?  And we don't know what the lock panels looked like, or if there were carving or beavertails there.  Same for forestock moulding - would seem likely since there is a buttstock moulding, but forend is replaced.  In the lock side view the thumbpiece is barely visible and appears to be bright, so probably silver.  Bob

[jharchery]

What kind and thoughtful replies, everyone. I am so grateful. The photos on the Royal Collection site do wonders.

So, now for the fun part, as we get to invent the parts that are missing. Any thoughts on the following, in addition to what Bob so articulately conveyed:

1. Nose cap thoughts? cast brass?
2. Side plate
3. should we assume double set triggers, based upon the movement of the guard? I'm thinking yes, per Bob's assessment.
4. lock panel, lower moulding and forend design and decoration?
5. barrel and lock color? blue or left white?
6. lock: What about the Davis Early Colonial, Chambers Early Ketland, Round Faced English or a large Siler?

Please feel free to opine. Tell me how you would approach it. This is not a serious restoration or recreation, but rather an interpretation. It should gain a lot of attention for the museum, as it has a thrilling history, saw battle, and possesses that wonderful patriotic message on the cheek piece inlay.

[rich pierce]

[vanu]

Even if the Thomas rifle has been returned to the UK, The Museum of the Revolution has a great (and expanding) collection of period arms including several very important Longrifles (RCA #104 & 142); further they recently acquired an outstanding Virginia rifle with a history of use in the Revolution that was destined to take the place of the Thomas rifle once the loan terminated. If anyone is in the Williamsburg area definitely worth the trip.

Bruce

[Craig Wilcox]

When I joined NMLRA earlier this year, I thought that it would be a great place to learn how to build a long rifle that I had always wanted.
This organization is MORE - so very much more.
Always having been a student of history, even so I never dreamed of so much history laid out - with appropriate documentation - for me to read and enjoy the learning process.

Outstanding camaraderie, great construction techniques, and a lot of the history behind it all.  I be in gun hog heaven!

[Stophel]

This poor gun has been so mutilated, I don't think there's anything forward of the nose of the comb that is in anything near to original condition.  I would not expect that even the barrel is original, at least in its current hooked-breech state.  This gun always had a "pinched in the wrist" appearance to me, and I expect that both the top and bottom of the wrist have been reduced somewhat.   The butt simply looks too big for the rest of the gun. There is only a remnant of the "teardrop" carving on the sides of the wrist, and there appears to be virtually nothing left carved around the tang.  No doubt all ground off when fitting the hooked breech.

Given the way that the new fore end is put on, I would bet that the gun was busted, barrel bent, and basically the only thing left was the butt, and they had Durs Egg put it to use.  In which case, I guess we can thank him... I guess...   

The box lid and hinge appear to me to be made of sheet brass (?), and not cast.

[Arcturus]

Not sure if the rifle is still on display, but when searching for the museum on google, I looked through many visitor pictures and someone did indeed post a photo of the rifle on display as of October '17.