Author Topic: 12 bore English Sporting rifle (Read 4375 times)

snapper · « **on:** March 24, 2018, 08:45:04 PM »

Here are pictures of the 12 bore I just picked up a few days ago.

English proof marks.

Any ideas on the other barrel markings?

thanks

fleener

Bob Roller · « **Reply #1 on:** March 24, 2018, 08:52:05 PM »

Fleener,
Thanks for posting this. Not long ago I told someone that not all of these
fine guns had fancy locks like the one Taylor posted for me a while back.
That looks like my Hawken lock internally.Less work and less money too
for a very useable lock.

Bob Roller

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #2 on:** March 25, 2018, 12:26:37 AM »

Carefull, that one might knock you over if you shoot it.....

westbj2 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 25, 2018, 01:37:28 AM »

Art,
Hard to tell from the pictures but bore looks like a slow twist for shooting a ball. If so, here is a story that might apply to your rifle.
Had a Purdey 12 bore double rifle that still had some vintage oxidized balls (.720 dia) in the case. Using those balls, took it out to shoot loading with 80 gr of 2F.fg Could not hit a garbage can size target at 50 yds!! After 6 or 8 shots I quit.
Perplexed, I went about trying to study the history of big bore rifles shooting a ball. Interestingly, the rifle had a 3 leaf rear sight with 3 notches with platinum lines on each leaf.....9 sights in total. In the 1840's and into the 50's shooting imported roe deer from a mark became popular on some estates. They had a fenced enclosure which forced the deer driven by beaters to run past the shooter as the fence took the shape of a funnel. Shooting was at 25 yards or less at the deer running full out. The sight on my rifle was a 'lead' sight!
Went to shoot again and started at 60 gr. , much better than before. Finally ended up shooting 45 gr. and both balls shot to the same spot at 25 yds.
Jim

snapper · « **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2018, 02:59:24 AM »

Jim

I have heard similar stories on trying to get a rifle like this to shoot. This rifle only has the one sight, no folding leafs.

Hopefully it wont be a difficult to get sighted in.

I need to find some round balls and patches now.

Fleener

smylee grouch · « **Reply #5 on:** March 25, 2018, 03:34:28 AM »

Gosh, it almost looks like you could crawl inside that bore. Should be a fun gun to shoot for sure. One heck of a Bear gun. Nice find.

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #6 on:** March 25, 2018, 05:22:57 AM »

Fleener,

Grand rifle and I have never seen a better bore.
It will have been made for soft skinned dangerous game, (using a ball, which was a better stopper than a conical)

Rose's were an old long established barrel making firm in Birmingham. Large family.

The lock is very clean and precise and looks like new!

Any marks inside the lock?

Jim, the story you were told is very imaginative, but that is all it is. Deer rifles were normally 16 bore for Red deer, and smaller bore for Roe. Fallow stalking was about the same as red deer in calibre.

I would think the above rifle would have been built for about 5 to 5 1/2 drams of powder and a ball. (Around 150 grs) Not a real heavy charge, but the ball did the work. Ladies as well as gents used these rifles for soft skinned dangerous stuff.

snapper · « **Reply #7 on:** March 25, 2018, 03:14:54 PM »

No markings on the inside of the lock that I can see.

The rate of twist is one in 45. Seems fast for a round ball?

fleener

Bob Roller · « **Reply #8 on:** March 25, 2018, 03:32:16 PM »

My 16 bore sxs Greener rwegulated both barrels at 50 yards with 90 grains of
old DuPont 3fg,snake eyes. I used new round balls made with a mould that came with the gun.
It also had a two piece "Greener Patent"bullet that I never tried.
Tom Dawson had a 16 bore Manton flintlock rifle that was marked 1 and 1/2 drams of
powder and it was a fast twist. There is a short poem that says "Charge it lightly but
patch it tightly.I did this with my 451 Whitworth using 40 grains of 3fg and a patched
445 ball so small boys could fire it without fear of get smacked by recoil.
Bob Roller

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #9 on:** March 25, 2018, 05:27:16 PM »

Bob,

The trouble with the "drams" is that in that day two measures were used, one normally for shot, and one for powder, Both 'drams', but one we now normally spell Drachms. "Drachms are about twice what a 'dram' is.
In Col Hawker's book, he weighs powder on Apothecaries scale, and shot with the Avoirdupois scale.
So, when we read 1 to 1& 1/2 drams, (Apothecaries) we are talking about 2 to 3 drams 'regular'.

I can'r remember the exact weight of apothecaries measure of drams into grains, but like I said, it is about twice the normal dram weight. (Twice 27 1/3 grs.)

Hope this helps.

Pukka.

Curtis · « **Reply #10 on:** March 26, 2018, 08:47:26 AM »

Nice find Art! What can I offer in trade for it?

?

Seriously, beautiful gun!

Curtis

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #11 on:** March 26, 2018, 03:28:55 PM »

Get in line Curtis, Old Chap!

snapper · « **Reply #12 on:** March 26, 2018, 05:40:06 PM »

correct me if I am wrong, but with a 1 in 45 twist, it would be a conical rifle, not round ball.

I am taking it with me this week when I head to Oakridge for the long range ML match to show it off.

My buddy Rick Weber built a 12 bore this past year and he has a bullet mold that I might just snag for a few rounds of casting.

at 850 grains per bullet, that is a lot of lead...

fleener

T*O*F · « **Reply #13 on:** March 26, 2018, 06:18:21 PM »

Quote

with a 1 in 45 twist, it would be a conical rifle, not round ball.

Round ball = light load
Conical = heavy load.

Faster twists will shoot balls accurately with light loads.

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #14 on:** March 26, 2018, 06:22:25 PM »

Fleener,
Thing is, many folks tried a conical and found them wanting in stopping power, so yes, this may have been made for a conical, but in truth many were used with a ball in the field.

I suppose you recall instances of Baker and his contemporaries, getting a conical mould, and finding it ruined the effectiveness by shooting through, so went back to a ball.
I'd reckon try both and see how it fares. The best stopper at that time was a large ball, and as ranges were usually V short, it proved the best for that type of work.

Trial and all that, and I might well be wrong! (You really need a lion or two within 20 yards....)

I still can't get over how clean the bore is.

R.

snapper · « **Reply #15 on:** March 27, 2018, 02:57:29 AM »

well, if you hear about a lion or two being shot at a zoo please pretend that you dont know anything.

Cant figure out how else to see how it performs.

Fleener

heelerau · « **Reply #16 on:** March 30, 2018, 12:06:50 AM »

Art, lovely rifle, likely as not for a bullet not a ball. It acording to Forsythe was the fashion at one time to provide both ball and conical for these rifles.
My 12 bore seems to have a ver slow twist of about 1 in110 inches, ver wide grooves and ver narrow lands. I use 4 1/2 drams of Fg with a .71 ball greased felt wad and a thick denim patch. My bore is no where as good as yours. Short range for tiger, or lion . some of these rifles have sights going to 300 and I wonder if that was more for marketing. The drams I use are 27 1/3 grains, the drachms mentioned are 60 grains. A lot of looseness in the use of these terms in the 19 century.

Cheers

Gordon

Daryl · « **Reply #17 on:** April 12, 2018, 03:16:51 AM »

Fleener - that is very lovely rifle. The bore is super as well.

i am very certain Richard is "Spot-On" stating the rifle was meant and sighted for round ball. as Forsyth noted

there was often a conical, usually hollow base "minnie style" mould 'thrown in' with the round ball mould.

Many English makes thought faster and faster twists were needed, whereas, Forsyth and some others were

instrumental in turning those philosophies around, but it took into the ctg. era to do it. Some makes did indeed

cut barrels with slower twists, but too, many held to the faster twists.

Taylor's 1853 Joseph Lang is just such a beast, 16 bore and 48" twist. it shoots well with 85g.r which is just over

3 drams(82gr.)

The apothocary's weight of 1 drachm, is 60gr., Richard.

Taylor's Joseph Lang's barrel.

Personally, I would not shoot a slug out of that barrel, due to what Forsyth described as "shaking the stock". He meant breaking it due to the extra recoil.

Taylor's Lang put 5 shots into just about 2 1/2" square at 100 meters. (109yds - 10 rods (close enough)

It weighs just over 8 pounds.
The load was .650" ball with .020" denim, wet patch and 85gr. 2F GOEX. This group was shot after firing upwards of 20 or 30 shots at closer ranges,

NO WIPING as no wiping is needed with that combination. The muzzle crown was just a bit sharp, as it was cutting some of the patches, in a minor way.

No burning and just a bit of scorching from minor blow-by. I would have gone to a thicker patch (+ some crown polishing), but those thin patches worked a treat on target.

Fleener, I have total faith yours will too, using from 3 to even 4 1/2 drams. My 14 bore's 66" twist shoots identically from 140 (5.2drams) to 200gr.(7.3drams), so your 12 bore 45" should shoot up

to 4 1/2 (approx. 120r.2F) just fine. I would not use heavy loads as I did in my new (1986 rifle). 120gr.2F is quite a light, low pressure load in a 12 bore.

Seems to me, that was the load I used in my buddy's 11 bore with 600gr. round ball. That barrel has 56" twist, I think. 3 of us (3 different shooters 2 shots each) made a 6 shot group at 50yards

with that load, 2 1/2" centre to centre, offhand, in hunting camp. It was one (Purdey style) Taylor built, using a Getz bl.

heelerau · « **Reply #18 on:** April 23, 2018, 12:59:59 PM »

As said some of these rifles came with both ball and bullet moulds. The rifle in this last post looks like a ver slow twist and I would go for ball and a stiff charge. I am still to try FFg in my own rifle, but may get a chance in a week or so, will report back. I am a little envious of you blokes having such crisp bores and nice crowns.

Cheers

Gordon

Daryl · « **Reply #19 on:** April 23, 2018, 07:35:52 PM »

The Lang barrel pictured has a 48" rate of twist.
Yes - it is for round ball as originally intended. The
rifling depth itself, is not designed for a conical ball.

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #20 on:** April 24, 2018, 05:24:52 AM »

Gordon,

I too can't get over these beautiful bores!! Never saw any back home that nice!!

I want one. (Anyone listening???)

smokinbuck · « **Reply #21 on:** May 22, 2018, 03:15:41 AM »

I recently picked up a 12 bore rifle, new not antique. The barrel is by Oregon and is rifled 1:104. Came with a Tanner .710 mold. Haven't had a chance to shoot it yet but am looking forward to trying it out.
Mark

TN Longhunter · « **Reply #22 on:** May 22, 2018, 03:00:06 PM »

Late getting in this thread. Missed it when it started. I have the brother to this gun. No maker or retailer markings. Just proofs and 12 bore. Mine does have multiple sight leafs. Found it and its little brother at last years CLA show.

TN Longhunter · « **Reply #23 on:** May 22, 2018, 03:09:24 PM »

Here is the little brother. "W Barrett & Son Burton on Trent" marked on barrel. Fifty four caliber, four groove barrel, single set trigger. Under barrel markings; STUBS & 527.

snapper · « **Reply #24 on:** May 22, 2018, 03:49:51 PM »

Very nice rifles

Got my RB mold and cast 60 balls over the weekend. Looks like it should work

Fleener

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Author Topic: 12 bore English Sporting rifle (Read 4375 times)

westbj2