Author Topic: Pics of modified Silers...  (Read 1188 times)

Offline Looper

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Pics of modified Silers...
« on: April 14, 2018, 06:17:06 PM »
Would some of you mind posting some pictures of some Siler locks that you have modified to look more English.

I've been searching for pictures, but photobucket has absolutely ruined the effectiveness of that. I swear, I don't think I've ever seen someone ruin so many good references as that company.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2018, 06:58:11 PM »
Hi,
This link has some. The photos are fixed.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=44346.0

dave
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 07:02:57 PM by smart dog »
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Offline Looper

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2018, 08:16:19 PM »
Very nice work. You would have made a heck of a North Carolina backwoods gunsmith.

Offline g.pennell

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2018, 09:00:09 PM »
Here’s another thread with some great looking modifications. http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=48126.msg476175;topicseen#msg476175

Greg
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2018, 10:56:45 PM »
I've modified a lot of Silers, but don't usually go English.  I did on this one, though.

It's a lousy picture, and it looks better than it shows here.  I do have a better pic, but it's a Track of the Wolf trademark picture.




Actually, there is another... does this one count?



Ok, this is an L&R lockplate, cock, and frizzen.  But it makes a dandy lock when you make it with Siler internal parts.  ;) 

When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline B.Barker

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2018, 04:15:28 AM »






Don't know if these are what you are looking for or not, lots of different English locks out there. The top one has all new parts on the outside. Plate and innards are siler. Next one I made new frizzen and frizzen spring. Bottom one is a small siler that had some metal welded on to the cock and back end of plate to make it rounded and made a new frizzen spring and used a Chambers queen Ann frizzen.

Offline Looper

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2018, 07:11:27 AM »
I'm looking for something that I could use on a North Carolina rifle circa 1770. I'm using a 15/16" breech Rice Barrel, so I think I need something a little more trim than an Early Ketland. I'd kind of like to stick with a Chambers lock, so I'm looking at using a Siler or his Golden Age lock, but modifying it slightly to look more English. I could use it as is, but do prefer the roundedness of the English locks. I don't think I'll go so far as to add material, though. I was thinking about just shaping the tail, the pan, and the back of the frizzen.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2018, 07:37:48 AM »
Actually, in my opinion, if you're using that small of a barrel, you need the biggest, thickest lock you can get.  And that won't be a Siler... modified or not.  It's the one thing above all I dearly wish I could change about the Siler lock... make that T H I N lock bolster about 1/32" thicker... and all my problems would be over!  Ok, not all, but quite a few of them.

If you must have an English type lock, use the Davis or Chambers round or flat faced locks.  You're seriously hamstrung by that 15/16" straight barrel (is it straight?), and you need all the width you can get for the wrist of the stock.

As for 1770 North Carolina... to my knowledge, there are no known rifles from that date or location.  If you wish to count "gun #42" (of the Bethlehem/Christians' Spring type), ok, but I don't know anything else even close.   Now, I've been out of it for four years, and maybe something new has turned up  ???  I once made a "believable fantasy" rifle to represent something from 1770's N.C... based loosely on an existing gun that is probably 1780's at the earliest, and MAY have been from North Carolina (or just about anywhere else)....
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 07:44:20 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Looper

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2018, 08:50:03 AM »
The barrel is a Rice Southern Classic. It does have a slight swamp to it. I have both a Chambers Round Faced English lock and a Davis Early English. They both look a little large for what I'm aiming for. I do understand about the width issue. Maybe I could reduce the lock plate down a smidgen on that Davis. I initially thought about using an Early Ketland, but it's about the same size as the Round English.

I guess that's what I'm doing, making a believable fantasy gun. Some of my ancestors moved to Orange County NC in the 1750s. They were among the first to settle the area, but they were a part of a mass migration to that part of the country. In the 1760s, from what I can discern is when the Early Deep River school of gunsmithing developed. This time frame coincides with the population growth in that area. I'm guessing it probably took a little while for them to develop their own unique style.

At any rate, thanks for the input.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2018, 09:05:41 AM »
The barrel's swamped, that helps.  Skinny barrels don't make the best early rifles, though.  Makes things more difficult.

That said, just because the barrel is a bit smaller doesn't mean your lock should be.

The smaller your lockplate, the fatter your gun will look (and not in a good way).  Take any gun, and replace the lock with a smaller one.  See all that wood around the lock now?  It can make a gun look enormously fat. My opinion is (and they're like belly buttons), with lockplates, always go as big as possible.   ;)

Draw it all out.  Make your own "blueprint", full scale, with everything carefully measured and calculated and laid out exactly where it will be.  Design your stock out, then see how the locks will work on it.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 10:14:44 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Looper

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2018, 11:45:48 AM »
Way ahead of you.

Here is what I initially planned (L&R Queen Anne):

I like the trigger and guard placement and the way the back of the pan lines up with the breech. I still have a good bit of room inside my lines to slim the stock up, too, so the final piece will be pretty trim. It will, however, be pretty narrow. My pattern is a smidgen low at the rear in the pic. I haven't sketched on the  panels yet, but they will be pretty thin.

Next is the Siler:
Not too bad. If only I wasn't so picky.

Probably the best one is the Late Ketland:
It looks great, but doesn't fit the time frame. If only I wasn't so stubborn.




Offline Looper

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2018, 11:57:50 AM »
Now for the ones that won't work.

The Chamber's Round English:
It could work, but I'd need to shift the barrel ahead a touch and the trigger back a smidge. I'd also probably need to have the bolster a little higher on the barrel. As is, it'll be pushing it to get that front lock bolt in.

The Early Ketland:
Same issues as the Round English. Looks good, though.

The Davis Early English:
I'd need to adjust for the trigger position, but wouldn't have a problem with the front lock bolt. Not too crazy about that cast in engraving.

For curiosities sake, the little Chamber's Queen Anne:
A little too small.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 12:16:18 PM by Looper »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2018, 02:12:18 PM »
I'd go with the early Ketland.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Stophel

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2018, 07:57:24 PM »
You have the flat faced Early Ketland lock positioned the best of all you show there.

But first, what are your dimensions?  What is the "web" of wood between the barrel and rod, the ramrod size, and how much wood is below the ramrod? (looks way too thick)  And what is the height of the wrist?  I have a couple of suggestions, depending upon these measurements.

Since you already have the top of the wrist/comb cut out, that can't move, so your trigger can't really move, which makes your trigger/sear your static point, and everything else has to be positioned in relation to that.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2018, 09:29:26 PM »
I'd go with the early Ketland.

I would too except for the early timeframe of his rifle which I believe is too early for the Late Ketland.

Oops! Sorry I was thinking you said late Ketland (my favorite lock!)

It probably is the best choice but will it work ok with that small barrel?
Dennis
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 09:34:26 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline Looper

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2018, 10:04:14 PM »
Barrel 15/16
web 3/16
ramrod 3/8
bottom 1/4 (tapers to 1/8 at entry thimble location)

I've got a lot of room to trim it down.

The trigger position is based on the L&R Queen Anne, which is about the same as the Silers. There's enough wiggle room to move that point if I need to.

I think we're getting too technical here. Basically, if I put this lock: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/imgPart/lock-lr-2000_1.jpg or this lock: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/imgPart/lock-ek-fr_1.jpg on this gun: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5mu_qq7SmNE/VTWw1C0y-II/AAAAAAABdL0/aneYrmjIqys/s1600/pritchard_1.jpg am I making a major, horrendous, unforgivable mistake, and call down the wrath of the gunmaking gods down upon me?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2018, 10:20:33 PM »
I think we overthink it and probably colonial gunmakers  took what they could get and made it work.  After the Revolutionary War they could probably pick and choose more.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2018, 11:54:05 PM »
FYI, I use the Davis English lock on 1" barrels all the time, so did 18th century gunbuilders.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Stophel

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2018, 12:11:55 AM »
Alright, first off, there is way too much wood below the ramrod.  Make it 1/8" of wood (MAX) all the way from the entry pipe to the breech (and continue this new line on through to the butt).  Making it a quarter inch thick there will result in a very thick, fat gun.  I know, I've made more than my share of thick, fat looking guns.   ;)  Your "web" dimension is fine.  It would be too thick for a heavier barrel, but for this one, it's like you're pretending your barrel breech is wider.   ;D

If your trigger is where it needs to be in relation to the butt/comb/wrist, then that is your starting point.  Locate the desired position of the sear in relation to the trigger (I always put the sear bar 1/2" from the trigger pin. Many people today put it much closer.. which is fine if you want a really LOOOONG let off.  Many old guns are at least 1/2" and often farther... but I digress).  That gets your lock position, fore and aft.  Now, up and down.  It is perfectly acceptable to put the lock above the centerline of the barrel.  In fact, with such a small barrel, it is almost a necessity.  It was often done 200+ years ago, so it is not unusual at all. This will get the nose of the lockplate up a bit, and closer to centered on the "web" of wood for your front lock bolt.  You can also tip up the nose of the lockplate a bit.  I don't like doing that, myself, but English locks of this vintage do tend to have narrow front ends and often display a bit of a tipped-up attitude anyway.  Again, I think the position you have shown for the flat faced "Early Ketland" lock is pretty good.  It looks slightly above center and tipped up just a hair.  Also, because the lock bolt may still nick the rod hole, you can notch the front lock bolt for clearance.  Which was commonly done 200 years ago too.  You can put the front lock bolt hole high, off center of the nose of the lockplate, but I really don't like when that is done, since it seriously screws up the sideplate side.

With the lock positioned, you can then locate your touch hole.  You can move it back and forth a little bit to accommodate your barrel and breechplug.  It doesn't have to be dead center of the pan (which can also be opened up some, if necessary). Depending upon whether or not you are using a touch hole liner and the length of your breechplug, you may have to move the breech end of the barrel forward or back some.  Don't worry about whether or not the pan fence meets the breech.  That's a modern obsession, and while it may look nice, it was rarely achieved back then.
 
I hope I don't sound like I'm pontificating!   ;D   I think maybe I'm making a gun vicariously, since I don't have work facilities ready right now for me to do it myself!   :D
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline little joe

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2018, 05:22:49 AM »
FYI, I use the Davis English lock on 1" barrels all the time, so did 18th century gunbuilders.
Wow Davis been around a long time.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2018, 10:36:31 PM »
 Modified Siler.
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Offline Elnathan

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2018, 03:21:32 PM »
Looper,

If it helps any, one of the earliest Mecklenburg Guilford County rifles still extant has a barrel with a 15/16 breech* and an English flatfaced lock about the size of the Early Ketland. Supposedly 1780, but while the buttplate has very little curve in early fashion it is fairly narrow (1 5/8") with a teardrop cross section that looks later to me, so it might be closer to 1790.

*Actually, it just under 15/16" at the breech, 13/16" at the waist, and 15/16" at the muzzle, so the muzzle is larger than the breech, but since it has a 19th century long tanged breechplug I think the barrel was shortened from the rear at some point and was originally 15/16" at the breech.

Edited to correct the school - I only realized my mistake several hours later when I was a hundred miles away from the computer!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 04:52:18 AM by Elnathan »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2018, 07:11:03 PM »
Would some of you mind posting some pictures of some Siler locks that you have modified to look more English.

I've been searching for pictures, but photobucket has absolutely ruined the effectiveness of that. I swear, I don't think I've ever seen someone ruin so many good references as that company.

Honestly why modify a Siler when you can buy actual English designs like the L&R #1700?
There is more to it than the shape of the plate.

Dan
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Offline Elnathan

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Re: Pics of modified Silers...
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2018, 07:41:33 PM »
Would some of you mind posting some pictures of some Siler locks that you have modified to look more English.

I've been searching for pictures, but photobucket has absolutely ruined the effectiveness of that. I swear, I don't think I've ever seen someone ruin so many good references as that company.

Honestly why modify a Siler when you can buy actual English designs like the L&R #1700?
There is more to it than the shape of the plate.

Dan

He was looking for a Revolutionary period lock smaller than the commercially available early English locks.
Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about.
- G. K. Chesterton