Author Topic: Wisconsin Gun Show Find  (Read 907 times)

Offline Brent English

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Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« on: April 15, 2018, 01:42:00 AM »
Fond du Lac, Wisconsin is not known as the long rifle capital of the midwest by any means, but I have picked up a few interesting guns over the years at the Central Wisconsin Gun Collectors Show.  Of the 400 or so tables, there might be a dozen non-military antique muzzle loaders.  This was one of them there today. 

Initials on the barrel are, I think a "C" followed by an "R".  Pretty sure about the "R".  The "C" is open to interpretation.  What are your guys' thoughts?  Any ideas who this fellow might have been?

A couple of other questions for the group: This gun looks late enough to me that it might have built as a percussion.  What do you think?

Also, I've convinced myself the lock is a replacement.  It's a little to big in the mortise, has a soldered in piece where it might have been fit to a different drum, and it's too plain.  Again, what do you think.

Any other comments or thoughts about this piece are appreciated.  About 40-42 caliber, rifled.  Barrel is 41" long, probably shortened at least once based on rear sight placement.

Thanks, Brent



























Done right is better than done fast.

Offline louieparker

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2018, 02:15:44 AM »
Brent you did well ! I like it ..Could have been either flint or percussion.. Is there a cut behind the hammer for a flint cock to rest on the top of the plate ?  The two screws makes you think flint but  not a guarantee. Regardless a very nice nice rifle..Looks untouched.    LP

Offline Brent English

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2018, 02:19:51 AM »
Brent you did well ! I like it ..Could have been either flint or percussion.. Is there a cut behind the hammer for a flint cock to rest on the top of the plate ?  The two screws makes you think flint but  not a guarantee. Regardless a very nice nice rifle..Looks untouched.    LP

Hi Louie, there is actually some wood filler back there.  You'll see that there is wood replaced in front of the lock, and the job they did isn't to bad.  But they chickened out between the hammer and barrel tang and used wood filler !
Done right is better than done fast.

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2018, 03:27:48 AM »
Golly I want this one to be an original flint gun. Can you find any evidence between your hammer and the raised panel where a notch would have been cut for a flint cock to clear?  Thatís one of the first places I look when Iím looking at an old gun hoping that itís a survivor. The 2 lock bolts are encouraging. That lock looks a little too big for the panels too (just me thinking aloud).  Flintlock or no, you have an absolutely beautiful piece! What a great find.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 03:35:56 AM by Stoner creek »

Offline louieparker

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2018, 04:10:54 AM »
Brent 
If that is wood filler and no evidence I would assume it was flint... On the condition I was referring to the stock finish. It has a great look...LP

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2018, 06:31:16 AM »
Wonderful. Hope to find one that good some day.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Hlbly

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2018, 02:21:36 PM »
I would look in the Pittsburgh area for the maker.

Offline Buck

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2018, 02:27:44 PM »
Great Find.

Buck

Offline Bigmon

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2018, 04:16:26 PM »
How did they do that "carving" look that looks almost to be painted?  Is it actually a shallow carving with ink or pain?? Or maybe just worn down carving with patina??
I see that on other guns but this one has that feature very prominant and a great look to it.

Offline Brent English

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2018, 04:36:00 PM »
How did they do that "carving" look that looks almost to be painted?  Is it actually a shallow carving with ink or pain?? Or maybe just worn down carving with patina??
I see that on other guns but this one has that feature very prominant and a great look to it.

It looks like very fine and nicely executed incise carving.  My guess is it is filled with finish, but it might be ink or paint as you suggest.  If you look at the detail picture of the carving behind the cheek piece you'll see it there in the details too.
Done right is better than done fast.

Offline DaveM

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2018, 04:46:23 PM »
Great find and really nice condition.  Love the forestock molding and carving behind the cheek piece, and sideplate enr
graving.  Congrats!  The lock being a replacement leads me to believe it was originally a flintlock.  let us know if you find out the maker

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2018, 10:13:01 PM »
The current percussion lock appears to be a period replacement for a smaller original lock; note how uneven the margins of the side facing are toward the rear of the lock. Usually original plates have an even (in width) band of sidefacing wood around them. I think the two lock bolt screws strongly suggest this rifle was originally flint, probably late flint period. The lock may well have had a late style double-throat cock; many late Golcher flint locks were made that way. This is a late flint period rifle, and it may be an Ohio rifle. Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 12:40:11 AM by Tanselman »

Offline trentOH

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2018, 12:47:08 AM »
I cannot conceive of a skilled riflemaker producing such an ornate rifle and then putting such a Plain Jane lock on it. Inconceivable. Whether it was originally flint or percussion I will leave to others.  But I would expect to see a different wear pattern on the barrel if the rifle had been fired a bunch as a flinter, as the gasses from the vent and pan etched the adjacent parts of the barrel.

Offline Big Wolf

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2018, 02:54:59 AM »
You hit a home run, congratulations! And I agree with the others, this rifle was most likely originally flintlock and the percussion lock was added when the conversion was done.

Offline Buck

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2018, 08:02:19 PM »
It reminds of a rifle I once chased that hailed from VA - WVA. Again great gun.

Buck

Offline Howard

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2018, 11:03:33 PM »
Very, very nice. I love seeing them in this state. great find.  I have a George Glaze with a side plate similar to your rifle.

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2018, 11:59:34 PM »
Some names to research.  C. Richwine, Charles Rife, C. Robbins, C. Roessler, Charles Roth
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Bill Wilde

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2018, 12:23:22 AM »
Interesting detail how the gunsmith engraved several times right across the forward screw on the patchbox final. Not often seeing this done but it goes to show that he engraved the patchbox while it was fastened in place on the stock. The current percussion lock looks to be a replacement. I would assume also that this gun was originally from the flintlock era. Nice find!

Offline Howard

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2018, 01:55:39 AM »




Here are two images of a George Glaze side plate.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2018, 04:18:36 PM »
The percussion lock looks to me like it might be a modern lock. The lack of percussion cap erosion on the plate, and what I can see of the drum, and barrel, indicates the gun wasnít used much as a percussion. The rust on the lock looks like recent surface rust.
 As beautiful as this is, and the striking degree of decoration, somebody will know who the maker is, Iím sure.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Brent English

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Re: Wisconsin Gun Show Find
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2018, 07:18:27 PM »
I pulled the lock out and it's pretty crappy.  Definitely not original to the gun.  Thanks for all the other nice comments. The seller didn't exactly give the gun away, so you're making me feel better about the outlay.  The stock is busted in two through the lock area, you can see this in the other pictures. I'm going to have Marv Kempler at Liberty Longrifles put it back together.  Marv had done other work for me and it's always first rate.

Done right is better than done fast.