Author Topic: Why I hate precarves  (Read 3283 times)

Offline Eric Krewson

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Why I hate precarves
« on: April 16, 2018, 12:54:14 AM »
I got an exceptional deal on an Issac Haines precarve parts kit, about half price. I started on it today and found the lock inlet was was cut way too low. When I put the pan centered on a flat in the right position in front of the breechplug I get this gap;




Right now I am moving the barrel back and will be moving it down to see if I can get close enough for my liner. If not I will glue in a piece in the lock inlet and start over.

What do you guys use to stain your wood glue if it comes to gluing a piece in for me.

I think this is a Track kit with upgraded wood, they put the buttplate and sights in and cut the dovetails for the underlugs. The kit sat up a long time and had some rust on the barrel, the bore looked good but I had Bobby Hoyt turn it into a .54 from a .50.

Nice wood;



« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 01:01:45 AM by Eric Krewson »

Offline Stophel

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2018, 01:03:16 AM »
I don't like precarves either, BUT.  Put the lockplate in where the inlet is and where does the pan sit on the barrel?  Is the pan opening still fully on the flat?  If so, leave it be.

Also, before you go sinking the barrel in deeper, how close is it to the ramrod now?  Will sinking it down in the wood make it too close to the rod?  If the lock inlet is still just flat out too low, and the "web" of wood between the barrel and rod is thick enough, you may well be able to lower the barrel into the wood some....
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2018, 01:45:20 AM »
I don't have the pan flat on the barrel but it appears the pan will be right at the bottom of the barrel flat, maybe a hair below it.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2018, 02:01:16 AM »
If your flashpan is exposing the corner of the barrel, then yeah, the barrel's gotta go down.  Hopefully you have enough ramrod room to do it.  It shouldn't take much, though.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 02:01:49 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Online Bob Roller

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2018, 02:24:00 AM »
A local maker here,Tom Nixon said he "liked"precarves because all the'mistakes
that were possible were already there and saved him a lot of trouble.

Bob Roller

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2018, 02:52:20 AM »
Previously I did one without the lock inlet cut, that precarve had plenty of other issues to deal with but at least I got the lock in the right place.  I did put together a Kibler kit but it doesn't count as a standard precarve because it was so spot on.

Offline PPatch

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2018, 02:53:16 AM »
A local maker here,Tom Nixon said he "liked"precarves because all the'mistakes
that were possible were already there and saved him a lot of trouble.

Bob Roller

That's a hoot!

dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline retired fella

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2018, 03:02:27 AM »
I think I would go with your plan "B" if you can obtain patch material that is close to the grain of your stock.  Lowering your barrel will bring your web into play and the front lock bolt may become a problem also along with the  ramrod.


Offline WadePatton

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2018, 03:26:18 AM »
A local maker here,Tom Nixon said he "liked"precarves because all the'mistakes
that were possible were already there and saved him a lot of trouble.

Bob Roller

That's a hoot!

dave

Absolutely, I just shared it with a friend who is having a precarve fixed presently.  Salt helps the wound heal  ;D (Thanks Bob)

« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 03:27:24 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline mountainman70

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2018, 04:36:24 AM »
A local maker here,Tom Nixon said he "liked"precarves because all the'mistakes
that were possible were already there and saved him a lot of trouble.

Bob Roller

That's a hoot!

dave

Absolutely, I just shared it with a friend who is having a precarve fixed presently.  Salt helps the wound heal  ;D (Thanks Bob)

So long as that salt is around the rim of a stout margarita!!! 8) 8)  Dave

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2018, 07:25:33 AM »
Eric,
If it turns out that you MUST lower the barrel...... most precarves have a more than adequate web.  You should be able to lower that barrel enough.  It is a pain though.  So much for a kit making this quicker.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2018, 08:36:33 AM »
I am doing a pre carve now and had the same problem, but not so much. It was only off a little bit. I lowered the barrel and moved it back. The barrel broke through into the space for the mainspring. Not sure if it will be a problem or not. Pre carves are a pain, but they are a lot faster than building from a plank. This is my second pre carve and it will be my last. I like plank better. And they cost less.

Offline Jay Close

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2018, 03:02:56 PM »
Earl MacFarlane, an old friend and competitive pistol shooter, used to say he didn't mind the pre-carves that were 90% inlet, it was the ones that were 110% inlet that gave him fits!

Online n stephenson

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2018, 03:32:32 PM »
I know that people always say that you can learn a lot , by repairing a precarve , and getting it going. There is truth to that . I personally find that I`ve always learned more from a blank. The reason I say this is that , if I repair a mistake someone else made , I learn to do the repair. If I screw it up myself , then have to repair it , I learn not only the repair , but what led to it , and not to do that again. The folks running them off , obviously don`t try to fix these issues , or you wouldn't keep hearing about the same things all the time. I`ve built a ton of precarves , but I still prefer a blank , much more freedom ! If you ever hope to really be able to do whatever you want in gunbuilding, blanks are the way. JMHO   NAte

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2018, 03:57:33 PM »
I have done two from blanks and could shape the stock much faster than I could correct the issues on a precarve. My two from blanks did have the barrel channel and ramrod hole done by Fred Miller.

Online n stephenson

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2018, 04:04:51 PM »
I have done two from blanks and could shape the stock much faster than I could correct the issues on a precarve. My two from blanks did have the barrel channel and ramrod hole done by Fred Miller.
That`s why I charge more for fooling with them!!   I agree %100 !!   People look a little cross eyed when I tell them that I charge more for kits but, I just price the extra aggravation into the deal .They really look funny when I tell them the price of watching! ::) ::)   And Bill Gates could`nt afford to jump in and "help" ;) ;) ;D

Offline Mauser06

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2018, 04:37:59 PM »
All precarves aren't created equal I guess.


I am cleaning up a precarve Beck done by Mark Wheland. I had zero issues. The lock mortise lined up perfectly with where I wanted the touch hole. Lock mortise was left a smidge tight..but it was tight the entire way around so left a nice clean fit when it was done.

Zero issues with it and it gave me a solid start on the shaping.   I refined it a good bit and removed a good bit of wood...but I'd definitely have Mark do another. 


Probably the difference between a big production run and someone like Mark, who I suspect runs 1 stock at a time and does the barrel and lock mortise etc with care and thought. Literally I move nothing and when I measured and marked my touch hole was going right where I would have put it.

Offline Jeff Durnell

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2018, 05:17:03 PM »
You guys are scaring me as I wait here for my first precarve kit.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2018, 05:51:02 PM »
You guys are scaring me as I wait here for my first precarve kit.

BE afraid!  :o

Because if you didn't read around enough to already know that pre-carves _can_ be nightmares, you didn't read much at all.  Hope yours works out fine. Some do I'm sure.  We don't hear much about those that do, but hear LOTS about those that need fixing. I have been threatened with one, but so far have avoided taking it into my possession!  ;)
Hold to the Wind

Offline L. Akers

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2018, 06:05:20 PM »
I have done one precarve that had no inletting done except the barrel and ramrod groove and hole.  No problems with it at all. I would not hesitate to do another. The stock was from Pecatonica.  However, I have never done an inletted precarve that was correct.  I've done a CVA kit and a Navy Arms shotgun and the problems were mostly sloppy mortices.  I'm working on a third kit now for a friend of a friend and it has been a royal pain.  It's a Hawken and the lock was inlet too low and too deep.  The lock bolster lies against the barrel but the lower edge of the plate is unsupported because of the too deep mortice and I can't file that much off the bolster.  I can't lower the barrel because that would cause the rib to misalign with the ramrod hole.  The barrel key escuctions were inlet way out of place ( or the staples were installed wrong on the barrel) and the trigger mortice is so far off to the rear the trigger blades won't reach the sear arm.  So I am having to make and install patches in every mortice and re-inlet the parts.  The stock is cherry and, luckily,  I have a facecord of cherry in my woodpile.  When I accepted the job I thought it would be a quick, easy job as the stock is from a very reputable supplier.  I should have known better.  I could have started from a plank and done the job faster and better.  This is the last pre-inlet stock I will ever do, friend or no friend.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 06:10:04 PM by L. Akers »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2018, 06:49:36 PM »
I wonít ever use a precarved stock again as I see little advantage. I build very few guns and to be interested, each must be unique. 

I did 2 kits and 1 precarve back in the day. Then I got a deal on a kit from a 3 letter supplier of historical kits and itís a nightmare. Wonderful wood spoiled with hogged out inlets and not enough wood left on to even scrape.

Kibler is the clear exception and perfect for someone who wants that gun.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline fjohnson

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2018, 08:35:48 PM »
the last 8 rifles i have built were of precarves.  they were pretty good.  but now im working on 2 rifles with precarve and preinlet.  they are a nightmare!  the inlets are really sloppy.  2 of the suppliers that i get from say in order to get a precarve with no inletting is a special order.  so plank building might be the way to go.

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2018, 11:14:26 PM »
Back to my other question; what kind of stain do use with your wood glue to hide a glue joint after the final stain and finish is on a gun? I like dark guns and will use Kibler iron nitrate and possibly tannic acid as well.

Offline Turtle

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2018, 11:32:48 PM »
 My favorite option when i don't want to start from a blank, is a preshaped stock from Tennessee valley manufacturing with just barrel channel and ramrod hole. You can get any LOP and they are real fat, way oversized with plenty of wood to play with. There is even enough width to add castoff.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Why I hate precarves
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2018, 01:35:14 AM »
If your intention is to redo the lock panel instead of sinking the barrel down, you can cut a thin piece of wood the shape of the lock and fit it in place of the lockplate.  Make it fit very snugly.  Glue it in with Titebond II wood glue and clamp it in tight.   If it is fitted well, there will be virtually no glue line.  There is a dark color Titebond II wood glue, which definitely dries dark... perhaps too dark.  Test it and see.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 01:40:07 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."