Author Topic: Herman Rupp  (Read 27834 times)

Offline JTR

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Herman Rupp
« on: May 21, 2009, 06:33:48 AM »
Wish it was mine, but alas, I'm posting this beauty for a friend.
I think this is the first time this rifle has been shown in pictures anyplace, so hopefully you'll enjoy seeing it as much as I have! 

Very nicely signed HR on the barrel.
The rifle is 59 1/2" long and the barrel is 43 1/4" long.
The breech is 1 1/32 across, tapering to 7/8, then flaring out to 1" at the muzzle. About 50 cal.
The lock is 5" long and 13/16" tall.
The length of pull is 14 1/4", the wrist 1 1/4" high by 1 3/8" wide. Drop at the heel is 4 1/2", and the buttplate is 4 5/16" high by 1 1/2" wide.
Nicely carved and engraved, with carved 'sideplates' for the two piece patchbox.

John


























« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 06:37:12 AM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2009, 07:05:05 AM »
John, thanks so much for posting these images of a truly fine rifle.  To my poor eye and limited experience, it looks like something from John Rupp rather than Herman, though I sure don't see a J in the initials.  In any event, it is wonderful to view a previously unpublished rifle.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2009, 12:51:58 PM »
Thank you John for posting these pictures of a very fine Rupp! I really like the carved panels around the PB lid. Very unusual and attractive. I just might have to try this on a future build. These recent Lehigh photos that you and Taylor have shared has truly ignighted my passion for this important school.
Joel Hall

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2009, 03:22:58 PM »
John....wow, what a super gun.    I copied a Herman Rupp on my first rifle build....I must admit, it's not quite this good.
Taylor, check out the amount of drop in the butt, as compared to the Kuntz rifle pictured earlier.    I think you could shoot
this gun.   After looking at the barrel dimensions, this has to be a rather heavy gun, but typical of what was being done
in that period.  Not too bad a gun, for a lehigh,    ha.                   Don

lew wetzel

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2009, 03:26:09 PM »
what a great rupp rifle...thanks for sharing.....i am still waiting on my barrel and have to get a few other parts before i start my build...so these pics are going into my files ......

Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2009, 10:22:24 PM »
Thanks John. Great looking rifle. I,d love to hold it up. Looks comfortable to shoot and worth copying.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2009, 10:49:09 PM »
Beautiful!  I've seen another rifle very similar, almost thought it was the same piece but the cheek inlays differ and the cheek carving here is a little simpler.  Personally I do not think these are Herman Rupp and in fact the initials shown here look an awful lot like AR to me.  Interesting, in that Herman had a cousin or brother who lived in Macungie near until @ 1790-1800 at which point he moved up to Weisenberg Twp., this guy being named Andrew Rupp.  He applied for a Rev War pension in 1840, age given as 82 meaning birth date of 1758.  Have no idea if he was a gunsmith or not - have not yet seen any evidence to that effect.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Stophel

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2009, 10:54:45 PM »
Looks more like "J R" to me, though with all the added flourishes, it can be hard to decipher.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2009, 05:57:22 AM »
What a beautiful rifle! Makes me want to throw rocks at the things I have managed to get ahold of over the years. Shows what someone with a good plan and some bucks can accomplish, I guess. Add  a dash of luck and it becomes an unbeatable combination.
Thanks for puting the rifle up there where we can see it, JTR. It is a fine, fine piece. 
Dick

California Kid

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2009, 06:19:58 AM »
Great gun, really worthwhile to post. Good job JTR. These are far and few between. Nice to see guns that have not been published in a book before.
Signature looks to me like JR or AR. I really have to use my imagination to see an H.
Don't know who is right.

Offline B Shipman

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2009, 07:34:14 AM »
Fabulous rifle. Wow.  Whoever made it. My impression would be John Rupp, not seeing a signature. I think The AR that Eric suggestes should be given real credence.

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2009, 02:24:33 PM »
John, Thank your friend for us all , and thanks for taking time to post these pics. I do have a question on these Lehighs , on the lower forestock is the brass plate covering the bottom from the entry pipe to the trigger original work ? I have seen this several times on Lehighs and am suspecting that  with the extreme thinness of the stock that maybe there just isnt enough wood under the ramrod hole to make that area durable enough..hence the brass plate. Any thoughts from them more informed than myself. ?


Offline Swampwalker

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2009, 05:33:24 PM »
This gun is shown in Shumway's "Pennsylvania Longrifles of Note" and is my favorite gun in that small booklet.  Mr. Shumway attributes this gun to Jacob Kuntz!  It's great to see some more pictures of this fine rifle, thanks for posting.

Offline louieparker

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2009, 05:39:48 PM »
John...Thanks for the post.  I have never seen a John Rupp with that style trigger guard and butt plate .The extensions on the ones I've seen were always cut down into the wood not setting on top like this rifle. The top of the plates have a lot of taper from back to front. They are also thicker.This gives the side of the butt a slightly rounder look. The guards are also completely different.They are wider and have a completely different side profile and the front of the bow has a small lobe or protrusion. Unless one has appeared in the last few years, there is not a proper replacement guard on the market for the younger John Rupp. As to the maker, I would agree with the other post, this could be AH . Fancy Letters are hard to read. Having never seen an Andrew I can't comment. But I certainly don't think it is John. Good discussion .      Louie Parker

Offline JTR

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2009, 07:12:14 PM »
Ooops, sorry for the never pictured before claim. That was my fault. He and I were discussing a couple of rifles, and it's the other one that has never been shown before. My apologies there.

So now this gun is a bit of a puzzle; being either a Herman Rupp, or John Rupp, or Andrew Rupp, or Jacob Kuntz.

I looked at a Jacob Kuntz 'J K' barrel signature I have a picture of, and it doesn't look like this guns signature.
I haven't found a John Rupp signature yet, but I just don't see the first letter as being a J.
And according to Eric, Andrew hasn't been shown to be a gun maker so there is nothing to compare his work to this one. However I do agree the letters look like AR. It would be nice if this rifle could be the first one know by him.
And I haven't found a Herman Rupp H R barel signature yet.

So who can post some pictures of  Hermans signature, Johns signature, or even Jacob Kuntz signature. Or even the unknown Andrew sig!
Given all the knowledge here, if we can put our collective heads together this should be easy to solve.
No matter the maker, I really like this rifle!   

John
John Robbins

LReedynephew

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2009, 07:31:43 PM »
Wow!!!!!!!! Nice.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2009, 08:10:20 PM »
The more I look at it, the more it looks like "J K".  Especially considering the way the Germans wrote the letter "K".
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2009, 11:10:38 PM »
Chris, you're absolutely correct.  The rifle is by Jacob Kuntz.  I thought it looked familiar.  It is pictured on pages 8 and 9 of "Pennsylvania Longrifles of Note by Geo. Shumway.  I really like the rifle, and these extra pictures are super reference stuff.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline JTR

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2009, 01:55:46 AM »
So Taylor, not withstanding what Shumway says about the gun, do you see the barrel initials as JK ?
Here they are again, so you don't have to click back to page 1.



John
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2009, 02:13:22 AM »
Great observation JTR!  I have a photo of Jacob Kuntz initials cut into the top flat of a barrel, and they don't look like the one above at all.  I say it's AR, and agree with Eric.  I will make another observation about the rifle though.  I see Jacob Kuntz influence in this rifle, and in some of the rifles that John Rupp has signed, and co-signed with Jabob Kuntz. 
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2009, 02:54:01 AM »
Here are the letters as I see them, with the extra fru-fru removed.


Now, first off, let me get my apologies out of the way for this picture.  I drew these rather quickly.  I am out of practice, and I used a pen nib that was too small for the size letters I was doing, but it was the one I grabbed first.  Also, these are the three hardest letters for me to draw.  Notebook paper also bleeds pretty badly.

These are the German print letters "J, K, and R".

The initials on the barrel surprise me, actually, as they are probably the ONLY examples I have seen of anything close to "proper" German Frakturschriften on a gun prior to the mid 19th century (which in itself surprises me).

The German Fraktur "A" looks nothing like "A", but more like a large lower case "a".  I'll come up with a Fraktur "A" and a German script "A", along with a script J, K, and R.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 02:59:27 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline JTR

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2009, 03:21:55 AM »
Chriss, I can see where you're going with the K and R,,, But the first letter on the barrel has two inclined vertical lines, so I don't see how it equates to a J ?

Taylor, Can you post that picture, please?

John
John Robbins

Offline Stophel

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2009, 03:23:50 AM »
Better yet, here are some ready-made examples



http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kobie/script.htm

When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Stophel

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2009, 03:27:30 AM »
Chriss, I can see where you're going with the K and R,,, But the first letter on the barrel has two inclined vertical lines, so I don't see how it equates to a J ?



John

There's an extra vertical line in the second letter too,  which doesn't really belong in any letter, "K, R, H" or anything else, in either language.

There's some extra bits in the upper loop of the second letter that I can't make out clearly enough.  If it goes the way I think it goes, it's definitely a "K", otherwise, it looks more like an "H", but a last initial of "H" doesn't go with any gunsmith I know of...
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 03:35:38 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Herman Rupp
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2009, 03:46:37 AM »
Taylor is right.   I  just went downstairs and got my Shumway "Longrifles of Note", which, by the way was my first book
that I bought dealing with the Kentucky rifle.   On page 12 & 13 this same rifle is shown.   In the text describing the gun
George states "the barrel is signed with two ornate initials, J. K., but there can be do doubt that Kuntz was the maker".
Despite my stated dislike for Lehigh rifles, I must admit I have looked at this gun and thought about building it many times.  It's a great gun.................Don