Jaeger building

[Old Ford2]

I need some help.
Would an iron mounted Jaeger have seen any engraving? On the butt plate, side plate.
The trigger guard has forward curves left and right ahead of the bow.
It is plane as cast, but I assume that acanthus leaves would be there.
I would like to carry the theme to the side plate, bow of the trigger guard, and perhaps the entry pipe.
With the curly maple stock, I wish to keep the rifle American, but not gaudy.
I do wish to have some silver wire inlay, but with the excessive curl of the wood, the extra ornaments may be lost.
My end result is to stain the wood a red wine color.
Suggestions would be appreciated.
Fred

[Mike Brooks]

I suggest you stock it in walnut.

[rich pierce]

I like guns to make sense.  Why does it exist?  Curly maple always means made (stocked) in the colonies to me.  And with a very early rifle, it probably mean re-stocked in the colonies.  It was likely less economically feasible to scratch build a rifle in the 1740’s-1750’s here than to import a complete rifle.  So, when building a re-stocked rifle, a story needs to be constructed.  Who first owned it and what did it look like as an original Germanic jaeger? Was it re-stocked for the original owner or is it a busted gun taken in trade and then re-stocked for sale to whomever?

So I’d want to decide what the gun’s story is.  Likelihood of a colonial builder in the 1740s-50s to import new iron mounts and scratch build a short rifle seems very slim.

[Stophel]

As a general rule, I find there are two types of iron mounted German rifles.  First are the so-called "Muellerbuechsen" (a term I've not quite figured out just yet... I know what it means, but not entirely certain what it MEANS).  Generally North German rifles with the large open bow guards with the lobe at the rear of the grip rail.  These guns very often have no significant engraving.  They also tend to be pretty well restricted to the late 17th-early 18th centuries (later versions of this triggerguard, which are common, are mostly brass). Otherwise, iron mounts seem to be found only on higher end guns, and tend to be heavily chiseled and engraved.  The strap-type Muellerbuechse triggerguards are relatively easy to forge in iron, but other types of guards are more complicated, and more expensive and time consuming to produce in iron than the same design in brass.  The great majority of German rifles and smoothbore guns have brass triggerguards and buttplates.  From economy grade up to top of the line.  The brass parts can be produced much more efficiently in quantity, and were actually mass produced and sold to gunsmiths in Germany, and even imported to America.  A "fresh off the boat" German gunsmith in America would most likely be using the same brass mounts he used before, rather than iron ones.

"Muellerbuechse"


I have yet to see an iron mounted German gun with this basic familiar form of triggerguard any less embellished than this one:



And I agree with Rich.  What, exactly, are you trying to achieve?  A German gun?  An American gun?  What date?  A German gunsmith in America... where was he from? While sometimes it is difficult to put exact locations on German guns, there are also some very definite regional differences.

Wire was big on guns in the 17th century, but by 1700 or so, it was very passe' and pretty rare to see on a German gun any time in the 1700's.

[rich pierce]

First time for everything, Chris.













delete your account page link

[Stophel]

Do you have pics of the rear of the cheekpiece?  I'm actually getting a possibly Swedish vibe from this gun.

Actually, the more I look at it, the stronger that Swedish vibe gets.

[Old Ford2]

A walnut stock would and could be more Germanic in design.
However the stock is curly maple. So I have to work with what I have.
As I said previously in one of my posts, the piece of wood was way too beautiful to pass up.
Also the lock and all hardware is iron so, it would be impractical to change.
I would like it  to represent a build that was made with the material at hand.
The bottom picture above( Rich Pierce ) is a lot like the design I would like to see. Although in curly maple.
A friend with keen eye suggested that engraving and other artwork should be kept to a minimum.
However, I have a trigger guard that has the irregular configuration to the front dictates that it would be acanthus leaf design.

[rich pierce]

Do you have pics of the rear of the cheekpiece?  I'm actually getting a possibly Swedish vibe from this gun.

Actually, the more I look at it, the stronger that Swedish vibe gets.

Made in Bonn.

[Stophel]

My opinion (for what that's worth) is that wherever the barrel was made, I am now certain that the gun was stocked and "hardwared" in Sweden.  The stock is a typical Swedish form. Swedish guns are almost universally mounted in iron, and usually only lightly decorated, in restrained Swedish fashion, as this one is.  But that triggerguard... is 100% pure Swedish.


I see this precise same triggerguard over and over again.  It's very distinctively Swedish.  Bow short in length, tall in height at the front and shorter in back. Long grip rail, long curled tail, large screw boss at rear.  Even with Swedish triggerguards that utilize a different form of grip rail, almost all still have the same very  specific shape of the trigger bow. 

I'm actually a big fan of Swedish guns. It's pretty cool, and they seem to be quite rare here.  I've never seen one in person.

Best I can scrounge up for Marder in Bonn is that there was a Johannes Marder in Bonn from 1780-1795.  I would expect that there were earlier Marder gunsmiths, but cannot confirm.  I can find a flintlock gun, ca. 1790 (a half stock, wood triggerguard gun that looks like a pretty typical unadorned 1790's German gun): http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/auktion/hhm53.pl?db=kat53_s.txt&f=ZAEHLER&c=44&t=temartic_S_D&co=7
 and also a 1780's-90's Wender, which is here: http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20allemande/artisan%20l%20m%20n/a%20marder%20johannes%20gb.htm
Also I found an air rifle of similar date: https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/windbuechse_johann_marder_bonn_um_1760_-_1780/l/87629
A few pistols too, but pistols are not usually very distinctive.

Sorry, now back to our regularly scheduled program!   

[Stophel]

Back to the original issue.... If you're wanting a rifle to represent something made by a "fresh off the boat" German gunsmith in America, at some specific date in time, and make it a reasonably believable historical interpretation, then I think more research is in order for you.  Of course, I'm VERY critical of such things, myself, so you might not want to listen to me anyway!   

I'm obnoxious and disliked, you know that, sir!

[Elnathan]

I'm obnoxious and disliked, you know that, sir!

Heh.

Actually, I'm very pleased to see you back on the board. I knew you were still alive, 'cause you posted occasionally over on the Muzzleloading Forums, but I was wondering what had happened to you.

[Pukka Bundook]

OLd Ford,

You have some pretty good advise already here.
Couple of things;

Get a copy of Geo. Shumway's book on Jaeger Rifles.  Being photo -copied articles from Muzzle Blasts, it pictures aren't the best, but do show regional style, and this would help prevent you creating a cross-bred.   Yes, there was some cross-breeding in styles, but the book will show you what is what.
Also,
Remember that iron mounts were much more costly than brass at that time, so would be dressed up a bit.   If I was looking to build an iron mounted and very plain rifle, I'd aim at creating a gun like Stophel shows, (North Central Germany, Berlin/Brandenburg style.  Frederick the Great was a very frugal and austere ruler, and the guns of his court reflected this.   They are often Beautifully crafted, yet severly plain compared to other parts of the Gernanic realm.
Something on the lines of a rifle by Johann George Von Der Fecht comes to mind.
Re the curly maple, I'd tone it down as much as possible. It detracts from clean lines very often.

Anther place or two to look for good high quality photos, is Herman Historica Auction archives of past sales, also  Zerny's (Italy).  Both do V high quality photos.
Also check Bolk.  They have a good selection of arms for sale of this type, and good photos too.

Good luck!
R.

[Jim Kibler]

Stophel,

I love the photo of the gun with the serpentine sideplate.  Is this one by Heinrich Hansen shown by Shumway?

Jim

[Old Ford2]

Hello again Guys,
The gun posted by Rich Pierce is somewhat like the gun I would like to complete.
I would like to build a transional gun American design, the stock is North American curly maple.
Barrel channel is done, ram rod, done. The lock has been inlet, and the fore stock has been 80% shaped, with entry pipe, and two other thimbles.
The steel nose cap, is also inlet.
I have started to inlet the butt plate. Going well!
Presently, I am measuring position for the triggers, and trigger guard.
The forward portion of the trigger guard is contoured for acanthus leaves, but there is no actual design.
That is part of my concern, the trigger guard with acanthus leaves and nowhere else does it have any features like this.
Question: Should there be any reference to the trigger guard, on the bow of the trigger guard, tang of the butt plate, the entry pipe, or the nose cap.
I do plan on having some wood carving on the butt, edging the cheek rest, back and front. at the barrel tang, and entry pipe.
All the carving above, BUT keeping constant eye and reference to the exceptional beauty of the curly maple.
Color of the stock to be a dark red wine hue. And a marginal amount of red wine into the person doing all this hard work.
Many of you fellows are well learned and have much more experience in carving and rendering guns of this type.
Hawken rifles are easy, Under Hammer rifles also, and so the same for other designs.
To tell the truth, I have never held or seen a Jaeger in real life. Making it all more the challenge.
The fact that this behemoth is .75 cal. and barrel is 41" long. makes this gun not for the weak of heart.
Any constructive help will be much appreciated.
And to Stophel, if you can dish it, I can eat it.    Chris, I always enjoy your posts and information.
Fred

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Suggestion:  leave as little wood as you dare in the forestock.

[Stophel]

Heinrich Janssens. I have no clue where I got the photos of this gun years ago, and I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes posting it.  It was just a convenient example.   

A lot of the information/regional attributions in the Shumway booklet are not correct, but he didn't claim to be authoritative.  The single best photo and information resource available to us today is the Hermann Historica Auktionshaus website.  They have excellent photography, and with each auction, they are showing more and more views and details.

[rich pierce]

Not to distract, but thanks for the help with identifying the origin of my smooth rifle, Chris.