Rifle with the I DE PRE lock

[Bill Ebner]

 I'm curious about the rifle with the lock marked I DE PRE shown in Of Sorts For Provincials. Has anyone done a copy or used it for inspiration? I'd like to see what you've done.
Is there any speculation about its' origin? I see that it is from the Gusler collection; has he published any thoughts about it?

Thanks.
Bill

[vanu]

Bill,

Yes, Wallace did a series of articles in MB several years ago, shouldn't be to difficult to get the dates (was on the cover once as well). This rifle came out of the Renwick collection in the 70's, great rifle with very distinctive Dutch influence. Of note, the rifle was recently acquired by the Commonwealth of Virginia and is on display at the Museum of the American Revolution, Yorktown, VA. Also, while it is dated 1771, several times in various locations, those are likely commemorative dates as they are not in any orientation that would suggest the maker applied them, further, this piece seems to fill the bill for the 1755-65 period. Very interesting rifle, almost impossible to aim by shouldering it, seems like it was designed to be fired from the prone position etc. I believe a copy was made by one of the modern masters, just don't remember who.

Bruce

[smart dog]

Hi,
The rifle is also included in Shumway's "Rifles in Colonial America" vol. 2 pages 606-609.  The lock is French possibly dating to the late 17th century.

dave

[Darrin McDonal]

This rifle is now on display at the Yorktown Revolutionary War Museum. It is a .68 caliber rifle barrel.
Darrin

[Stophel]

It's pretty much a Brown Bess musket with a rifle barrel.  It's dated 1771.  Whether that's genuine or not, I don't know.  Could be.  Personally, I just don't see it being any earlier than that.  I vaguely (though perhaps, incorrectly) remember seeing this rifle once, but I didn't handle it...

[Eric Kettenburg]

It would be nice if Wallace would visit now and then and fire off a few comments.  I very distinctly remember he briefly discussed this piece with me many moons ago, and there were some extremely interesting and specific details present that do not manifest well in the photos.  Unfortunately I don't remember what they were but I believe they pointed toward a particular usage, and also that it may indeed be a fairly early piece, earlier than 1771.

[Mike Brooks]

It would be nice if Wallace would visit now and then and fire off a few comments.  I very distinctly remember he briefly discussed this piece with me many moons ago, and there were some extremely interesting and specific details present that do not manifest well in the photos.  Unfortunately I don't remember what they were but I believe they pointed toward a particular usage, and also that it may indeed be a fairly early piece, earlier than 1771.

I remember chating him up about this gun at F-ship in the early 00's. He claimed it was probably the earliest VA. rifle found to date. I wasn't convinced. Looked to me like a restock of a 1680's French lock and a mix of other spare parts. Could have been made anywhere and anytime past 1740-1800. But of course I'm no expert.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I don't want to put words in his mouth incorrectly but *I think* there were some subtle details which led him to believe that the piece was deliberately made to masquerade as a trade or commercial gun from a distance while of course it is in fact a rifle.  Something along those lines, iirc.  I wish I could remember more completely because it was actually pretty interesting.

[Mike Brooks]

deliberately made to masquerade as a trade or commercial gun from a distance

I hate to question....BUT ......why would that be important? I realize folks passed some laws about  Injuns and rifled guns but I don't think the Injuns really paid any attention to this sort of thing. Plus the fact it's a whopping .68 cal. No Injun in his right mind would have wanted to feed that beast.
OK, Just got the book out. Interesting piece. The thumbpiece appears to be nearly identical to a HVF thumbpiece. English buttplate. The t guard appears to be off an English trade gun similar to the one Goering owns. Fish bellied stock, dog knot at the rear pipe. If I had to place this gun anywhere it would be in New England. Of course I ain't no expert.

[rich pierce]

I thought this was supposed to be a South Carolina gun.  It’s a composite rifle of very large caliber, and vaguely English styling.  All this suggests to me it was made for the Revolutionary War.

[Stophel]

My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that the gun could be New York... or Georgia... or just about anywhere in between (though I would bet much closer to New York than Georgia).  It's your basic fat British/Dutch musket-ish style gun with assembled parts....  What about the gun could possibly tie it to a specific region (or even a date?)??

Everybody wants to put pre-revolutionary dates on guns. And there is, among many people, a STRONG desire (some say obsession) to find early Southern guns... somewhere... anywhere!   

[Acer Saccharum]

Rifles of unknown origin. A fascinating segment of the longrifle history.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Again, I'm just going by a vague memory of what Wallace was telling me, but he did seem to have some info or something that did render his storyline somewhat believable. 

[Mike Brooks]

Again, I'm just going by a vague memory of what Wallace was telling me, but he did seem to have some info or something that did render his storyline somewhat believable. 

Yes, I heard the same story.

[vanu]

Here is the cover of the MB issue (Feb 2012) that contains the article by Wallace discussing this rifle along with the Cookson (details are on Jim Kibler's website).

Bruce

[Jim Kibler]

The burl stocked gun in this article wasn't by Cookson.  Not the Cookson I owned.  Can't recall who made the English gun he discusses in the article without digging it out.

[vanu]

Sorry Jim, my mistake! Bruce